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tbf to this thread, wayland wasn't really viable until 2023.
I made an existing comment on this that people didn't like because I pointed out that most of Wayland's "modern upgrades" like VRR, HDR, etc were unimplemented or unfinished for years. Even HDR is still "beta" on KDE iirc.
People also like to pretend the triple buffer wasn't a can of worms for many users for a very long time (and still is on low power devices).
What's it with the Wayland hate?
X did a great job for decades but it's old, it never was designed for modern day requirements, let it retire gracefully instead of dumping on it's replacement, maybe?
I understand there are some apps that still require X, those at some point will be / should be / have to be updated, but I don't see that as a reason not to want to move forward to something better
Wayland is 18 years old. From 2015 on people whose entire computer use was a browser and a terminal on their single screen laptop with intel integrated GPU were telling everyone else they needed to change over because X was already practically dead and wayland was ready for prime time.
Meanwhile even on the latest and greatest everything wayland still has at that point many problems, many limitations, and is from the perspective of many users not better in any way whatsoever and in many ways worse. Continue this for 11 years. By the time everything is ready for prime time you've already primed people to reject and dislike you.
The issue with wayland is that both the process and the base mechanisms had significqnt flaws, that made it take a long time to get things working. In all fairness, the core team uad a valiant effort for a dwcade, hampered by unresponsive complainers, and late-to-the-party suggestions.
Fyi: I am an early WL adopter, but not on any of the major DEs.
hampered by unresponsive complainer
How outside of your fantasies did people bitching actually slow down devs introducing features that people should have known were needed in 2008?
Large Wayland projects like KDE and Gnome that are considered member projects of Wayland had the ability to NACK new wayland protocols and proposals. This has historically been abused by a lot of a different projects, in many instamces Gnome because they didn't want to implement things. A lot of wayland proposals were unnecessarily delayed because of this. The bylaws of how wayland projects are allowed to NACK things has since changed to make it so a single project cannot needlessly block protocols but this was only implemented in the past few years iirc so for a long time this happened. Thats a massive contributor to why wayland development takes so long.
I think you have the wrong tone.
The comainers were nvidia, when they didn't participate in the early anni g, and then cam in late trying to push a rewrite to the memory sharing model.
Was that just my fantasy, or did other people have the same drean? I did mention that I was an early adotper. Maybe I should have clarified that I never went back.
Listen, no matter your opinion on wayland, you can admit that some technical decisions made were not optimal.
Some people just can't find a better hill to die on it seems.
Maybe also some undead refugees from the “systemd hate” hill or something.
It's not like anyone had legit critique which online weirdos reframe as irrational
Oh I'm sure there was valid critique, but at the time it was completely hidden under a pile of made-up conspiracy bullshit about red hat being the devil or so, or plain wrong assertions like “it's monolithic” or “it forces you to use binary logging”.
If the debate would have been about technical merits, maybe one of the other init systems would have won by being slightly better, but systemd’s detractors prevented that really well by making the public “debate” a compete farce.
Wayland has to overcome more real problems than systemd (because X11 was a giant monolith of compatibility hacks that everybody used, as opposed to a hundred piles of messy shell scripts that was SYSV init). But it has no alternatives that could possibly have more technical merit; I can't even remember the thing Ubuntu announced for a hot minute.
Wayland is overall just better. I know there are plenty of apps that keep people on X11 just because they don't properly support/work on Wayland yet, but other than that I'm not sure why you would want to stay on X11.
The overwhelming majority of systems consist of one monitor. For the minority on two monitors the overwhelming majority have 2 low DPI monitors or 2 high DPI monitors.
For those with mixed DPI screens only recently has any system supported scaling xwayland apps appropriately on such setups meaning some apps look like garbage and they still do on gnome. xrandr --scale to scale per screen has worked since 2003 and per screen fractional scaling works on Cinanamon under X right now.
To revise
90% of everyone
Single screen: Wayland == X Multiple similar DPI Wayland == X
5%
Mixed DPI with a mix of Wayland on X apps on every desktop but KDE X > Wayland
5%
Mixed DPI with a mix of wayland and X apps on KDE Wayland > X Mixed DPI with only wayland apps Wayland > X
I wonder why something that is only better for 5% and worse for 5% and requires 100% to deal with bugs missing features and growing pains has negative feelings attached!
The software you use working correctly is kind of a big deal, though.
Wayland is like how windows people say Linux is.
It works and is Incredible, but on X11 things just work.
I have the opposite experience. Multi monitor setup for my was always a half broken hassle on X11 and just works on Wayland.
I've only ever really had issues with X11 to be fair. Since DEs started fully shooting Wayland I was able to finally switch over to Linux full time and it feel better than Windows in every regard
Let me guess... You have an Nvidia card.
Protip: People who have iGPU + nvidia can just set the iGPU as main GPU on the BIOS and offload 3D programs to the nvidia via prime-run like they would on a laptop.
That's my setup.
Can you actually use the ports on your dedicated GPU in this case?
I used to do this, but literally just switched to discrete Nvidia yesterday.
Zero issues so far. TBH it actually fixed issues I had with HDR and video decoding on my AMD IGP.
Guilty as charged
So you are living in an illusion of choice, while your options are obviously determined by the big corpo that you relied on for getting that card
(Saying that, I got an NVIDIA card like a dumbass too)
....more like a gifted old laptop, but yeah.
So not your choice either XD
i ran arch with 2 monitors with different refresh rates on a rtx2060, idk why everyone's complaining. my screenshare issues were my fault or i didn't update vesktop which i can't fault due to it being like a "pirate" client for discord.
so what's everyone's issue?
KDE on Wayland has only very recently started to become workable for me, before that it was utter crap as I switch between home and office with my laptop, with varying display setups. In that case you got stuff like screen positions not being remembered and applications consistently starting off screen, requiring gymnastics to coax them onto a display.
And regularly it would crap out and not show output to one of the displays, if you opened up display manager you'd see the displays not touching and a big red error that gaps betweens displays aren't supported. Well here's a brilliant idea, how about not automatically putting a gap between them in that case?
As I said, last few months it works better (although I still encounter some issues that I never had on X11). But the whole Wayland protocol had such a rough start, with issues encountered often being downplayed by parts of the community because "it's better and we don't want to hear otherwise", that I simply cannot feel any love for it anymore. There was too much basic stuff that took too long to support, while people were shouting "but HDR!", "better code!". I don't fucking care, I just want to be able to work and for too long that required X11.
Wayland is a sports car - modern, tailor made for performance. X is like a '99 Civic that's had the seatbelts stripped out and the airbags replaced with cameras that let all the other cars on the road see you naked.
It's fine to prefer X, but the older it gets the more people are going to roll their eyes at you. XWayland is fine for random old stuff, but there is zero reason X should be running your whole display these days.
Inb4 someone mentions network transparency that gimps the rest of the system or some 5000 year old app that needs to sniff events sent to every other program.
And the network transparency argument is long gone. While you can indeed network windows over the wire, most toolkits use client side rendering/decorations. So you're just sending bloated pixmaps across the wire when things like RDP , VNC, etc deal better with compression, damage to the window, etc. And anything relying or accelerated with DRI3 is just NOT network transparent.
Most modern toolkits have moved past X11 because the X protocol was severely lacking, and there wasn't a good way as a committee to modify the protocol in an unified manner. I mean look at the entire moving Earth that it took for XFixes and Damage extensions. Toolkits wanted deep access to the underlying hardware and so they would go out of their way to work around X, because it just could not keep up.
So I recently updated pop from 22.04 to 24.04. The only real headache I've had is running games through proton. Games now start in windows, which might not even show up at all until I super + F11 to full screen it. The mouse gets stuck in either a corner or the middle, sometimes the cursor works in the menus but stops working on the game itself. Gamescope can fix some of these issues, but alt-tabbing is always an adventure if it breaks the game or not.
An annoying thing is it is very hard to figure out where an issue lies. Is it wayland, is it Cosmic, is it gamescope, or proton? Any tips or tricks people might have would be appreciated.
It's a shame, because I want to like Wayland. i don't know what magic system 76 worked in x11 but the only issue I had before was some tearing when moving windows around. 2 monitors of different resolution and framerate with nvidia.
I honestly don’t know where people are getting these Wayland issues. I’m on EndeavorOS with an RTX 3080ti and multiple monitors and it has worked flawlessly for ~2 years now.
There's probably a lot of people on 'stable' distros who are still running Wayland code from a couple of years ago and hitting bugs that have been fixed already.
I honestly haven't noticed a different except Wayland feeling a bit faster.
