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Like a story can literally beat someone over the head with a theme or moral and people somehow come to the opposite conclusion?

It's like "Tyler Durden is so manly and cool" except every bit of media feels like it's misinterpreted like that now.

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[–] ReadFanon@hexbear.net 75 points 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago) (20 children)

There's a lot behind this and I don't want to come off as if I'm pinning it all on a younger generation or [current fad] but it seems to have reached its peak to this point with the anti-intellectual tropes of "it ain't that deep bro" and "sometimes the curtains are just blue."

This is the culmination of a ton of factors in the west, especially the US, where decades upon decades of underfunding of education has finally had a cumulative effect a lot like deindustrialization. I know that sounds ridiculous but hear me out. For a long time as the US outsourced manufacturing, there was a skeleton structure of holdover manufacturing and logistics that kept things ticking over. Not like in the previous eras but enough that the problems as a consequence of deindustrialization didn't manifest until later. It's only as the last vestiges really fell away that it became apparent with the covid outbreak and the block in the Panama canal and soon after, the block in the Suez canal to a lesser extent (for the US) that it was obvious how bad things got. (That's when there was the knee jerk CHIPs act under Trump to try and reshore semiconductor fabrication, but that's a story for another time.) Anyway, a similar thing has happened with education and media literacy - there's a genuine literacy crisis in the US that forms the backdrop of the media literacy crisis but both of these have been coming down the pipeline for decades. As education outcomes dropped, older people could kinda keep things ticking over and they could impart a degree of literacy in all modes just by encouraging it and setting a higher standard, and workplace expectations also set the bar to a certain extent. This has gradually slipped away though. These days it's getting so bad that online people are getting AI to summarize content or a comment, then getting AI to generate a response, copy-pasting that, and then the next person responds by using AI to interpret and respond. This is because for some people their literacy muscles (literacy literacy or media literacy) are so underdeveloped or so atrophied that they aren't able to engage properly and they need a crutch to lean on. It's not all AI though, that's just a symptom of the literacy crisis.

This is also where a lot of vibes-based analysis comes in too. People struggle to actually advance a thesis and, when they state a position, it often lacks anything to back it up and if the person gets pressed on it usually their argument crumbles like wet cardboard. You see this with people throwing out weird allusions where they just rely on a "thing bad" response. One example that comes to mind is that I criticized Mamdani for being a Zionist online. A person responded that he absolutely was not one. I explained that he openly supports the existence of modern-day Israel as a state given he advocates for a two-state solution and thus that makes him a Zionist categorically. The person rejected this argument reflexively but couldn't actually offer anything more than "nuh-uh." When I paraphrased Wikipedia and said that Zionism is advocating for the political project of an Israeli state and that Mamdani fits this definition to a tee, they couldn't respond. But it didn't feel right to them. They were wholly unable to engage with the discussion though and they couldn't actually manage to talk definitions or principles and they were unwilling for me to dogwalk them to the point.

There's also a sort of siege mentality amongst progressive libs. The conservative libs have been very anti-intellectual for a long time, longer than I've been alive, and the old guard of erudite conservative libs is long dead. As a whole they aren't able to engage with anything to significant depth. But in the Trump/Qanon era, the progressive libs have been rudderless and they've been unable to defend the gains in the culture war, let alone getting their shitty candidates elected, and amongst them I see this sort of Weimar Republic progressive flavor of latent terror at the awareness that they aren't able to fight back, let alone win. So they seem to have shut down and closed themselves off in response to the rise of (more extreme) reactionary politics. This siege mentality makes progressive libs incapable of engaging with literacy on any serious level. (Idk I'm not really doing my point justice here but hopefully it suffices, I'm tired.)

I also see a lot of people who can't manage to engage in hypotheticals or, at the risk of coming off as a debate pervert, thought experiments. People genuinely seem to struggle with following through the logical extension of an argument. There's a developmental milestone that comes to mind and I forget what it's called but if you tell a younger child "Imagine gravity is reversed, so things fall upwards instead of downwards. If I drop an apple, what happens to it?" and a younger person who hasn't reached that level of development can only use their experience as a reference and they can't hold a frame where they consider the implications of a scenario where the imaginary rules have their own outcomes so they will respond that the apple will fall down to the ground, whereas the older child has reached the developmental milestone where they can respond with the counterintuitive answer of upwards. I'm not trying to pathologize this phenomenon by implying that people like this have developmental delays but if you don't exercise engagement with these sorts of things, you lose your ability to deploy them. It's a thing where it can hem in a person's ability to engage in media literacy because if you argue that a character in media is basically a stand-in for Hitler, for example, people will respond with superficial rebuttals but when you defend your argument with "But there is no Germany in this story" they believe it vindicates their rejection of the argument instead of asking themselves what Hitler would look like in this fantasy setting where, instead of being a German in the 1930s, he is an elf in a high fantasy narrative - if you can't hold the frame that there are different "rules" to the reality of a narrative, if you can't engage in comparative analysis or symbolic analysis, if your whole engagement with the world is purely vibes-based then you're gonna have very poor media literacy.

So imo it's largely due to the education system buckling under decades of defunding as well as a political context where people are encouraged to be incurious coupled with technological crutches that make it easier to avoid engagement, but the tech aspect is very downstream of the cultural and political aspects (political including education policy here.)

[–] Dort_Owl@hexbear.net 26 points 1 week ago (13 children)

GOOD comment. You say you're tired but that was interesting and easy to understand.

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[–] Wheaties@hexbear.net 23 points 1 week ago (1 children)

CHIPs act under Trump

CHIPs act was Biden

[–] ReadFanon@hexbear.net 17 points 1 week ago (2 children)

Oh whoops. *Post Trump 1.0

My bad, thanks for the correction!

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[–] NinaPasadena@hexbear.net 16 points 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago)

Very well said. I don't have much else to add besides excellent analysis comrade.

I thought I was too tired to keep reading but I couldn't stop.

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[–] FlakesBongler@hexbear.net 41 points 1 week ago (1 children)

It's intentional

It fucking sucks because every single time I play with random on Helldivers, I have to deal with people who just miss the joke entirely

Literally had a guy with the username Paleocon88 join up my last game

I shot him with a stun round from my shotgun, then burned him with a flamethrower before I kicked his ass

[–] DragonBallZinn@hexbear.net 33 points 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago) (2 children)

Beat me to it. It’s not about media literacy but narrative spinning. In this day and age, the more intellectual, the more complicatated, the more nuanced your ideas? The worse. Complexity and nuance are liabilities in this new world.

The good news is we can do it too. One of the best ways to disarm a fascist soyjak meme is just get dumber and say “soyjak right tho.”

[–] mayakovsky@hexbear.net 48 points 1 week ago

In this day and age, the more intellectual, the more complicatated, the more nuanced your ideas? The worse. Complexity and nuance are liabilities in this new world.

This gave me a flashback to the debates in 2020 when Biden(?) asked Bernie to explain his economic plan or whatever, Bernie said "Do you have an hour?", and Biden(?) said "that's the problem". The crowd cheered. This was the one where the crowd also booed literacy.

[–] Self_Sealing_Stem_Bolt@hexbear.net 23 points 1 week ago (1 children)

I disagree. That might be what chuds and some libs do, but in my experience if you know what you're talking about (more likely than them) you can just dance in fuckin circles around them cause they know NOTHING. Its hilarious in a black comedy kinda way. You can short circuit westerners pretty easy ime

[–] Damarcusart@hexbear.net 25 points 1 week ago (2 children)

You start at "dumb one liner" and then show them that you actually understand the topic beyond thought terminating cliches, which gets them really mad, as they only ever have one liners and truisms, never any actual analysis.

[–] Self_Sealing_Stem_Bolt@hexbear.net 22 points 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago) (1 children)

Yeah, I had a transphobic chud just state, "I don't want to talk about this anymore" as soon as i pointed out he was confusing Sex and Gender. They have nothing past the surface level. All they can do is repeat what they heard last. Its fucking sad, and terrifying.

[–] Damarcusart@hexbear.net 23 points 1 week ago

That's when I usually get all up in their face and call them triggered and snowflakes, turn their own bullshit back on them.

[–] NephewAlphaBravo@hexbear.net 16 points 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago)

leave them with a parting shot from mao, "if you don't know shit don't talk shit"

[–] BodyBySisyphus@hexbear.net 38 points 1 week ago (6 children)

No worries, the SAT is adapting.

[–] Moidialectica@hexbear.net 18 points 1 week ago

please tell me the SAT isn't all like this

[–] Big@hexbear.net 18 points 1 week ago (3 children)

"Holler of the fireflies" has got to be one of the worst titles ive seen.

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[–] SorosFootSoldier@hexbear.net 33 points 1 week ago (1 children)

We literally have "Truth Social" where the president tweets out "truths" if that ain't some ministry of truth shit idk what is. Oh my bad though, 1984 is when trans people exist, right right.

[–] ReadFanon@hexbear.net 31 points 1 week ago (3 children)

1984

On this matter, I occasionally break people's brains when they argue that words like "unalived" are literally 1984 because it's actually the polar opposite of Orwell's (admittedly pretty shitty) thesis with Newspeak.

Here's the summary of the Newspeak position:

The government controls language and removes words and, thus, removes the concept from our collective experience by making it impossible for us to engage with it or describe it.

Here's the summary of neologisms like "unalive":

The structure of social media prevents/discourages discussions of suicide and so, in response to censorship, people maintain their concept of it and they resort to inventing new words to communicate the same idea to subvert attempts at preventing discussion of these topics.

You see what's going on there, right?

Newspeak is the erasure of concepts by eliminating words. Social media neologisms are the response to censorship and the effort to work around it while maintaining the shared understanding of the concept through making more words for the concept, which is the exact opposite of removing words for a concept until (allegedly, according to Orwell's dubious position) the concept itself gets erased. So if you're concerned about a 1984 reality where words are removed and concepts are erased then you should actually be celebrating social media neologisms rather than denouncing them.

...but apparently nobody engages their literacy when it comes to reading 1984.

[–] Wheaties@hexbear.net 34 points 1 week ago (2 children)

Right at the beginning of the book, it says most of the surveillance state is pointed at government employees and that it doesn't matter too much what the average workers say and think. But for some reason, nobody responds well when I remind them of that.

[–] Kefla@hexbear.net 35 points 1 week ago (2 children)

Yeah 1984's assessment of the average worker is basically that they are meat robots who have no effect on the world and that it doesn't matter what they do or think because nobody does or should give them or their affairs the slightest thought

Orwell was a "socialist" though agony-shivering

[–] ReadFanon@hexbear.net 29 points 1 week ago (2 children)

Bri*ish socialism has always been deeply aristocratic at its core and Orwell can't help but exemplify that colonial cop mentality in his writing

[–] Rod_Blagojevic@hexbear.net 22 points 1 week ago (1 children)

His interview with Stalin is hilarious, and it's very interesting to see Stalin calmly explain himself to a dunce.

[–] ReadFanon@hexbear.net 18 points 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago) (2 children)
[–] Wheaties@hexbear.net 16 points 1 week ago (2 children)

I remember the situation with regard to the technical intelligentsia several decades ago. At that time the technical intelligentsia was numerically small, but there was much to do and every engineer, technician and intellectual found his opportunity. That is why the technical intelligentsia was the least revolutionary class. Now, however, there is a super­abundance of technical intellectuals, and their mentality has changed very sharply. The skilled man, who would formerly never listen to revolutionary talk, is now greatly interested in it.

Recently I was dining with the Royal Society, our great English scientific society. The President’s speech was a speech for social planning and scientific control. Thirty years ago, they would not have listened to what I say to them now. Today, the man at the head of the Royal Society holds revolutionary views, and insists on the scientific reorganisation of human society. Your class-war propaganda has not kept pace with these facts. Mentality changes.

goddamit, yet another tally in the "modern US is where Britain was a century ago" column

[–] Wheaties@hexbear.net 19 points 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago) (2 children)

Stalin: The Communists base themselves on rich historical experience which teaches that obsolete classes do not voluntarily abandon the stage of history.

Recall the history of England in the seventeenth century. Did not many say that the old social system had decayed? But did it not, nevertheless, require a Cromwell to crush it by force?

Wells: Cromwell acted on the basis of the constitution and in the name of constitutional order.

i-cant

[–] Wheaties@hexbear.net 18 points 1 week ago

hot damn Stalin really has a firmer grasp on English history than the englishman

[–] LeninWeave@hexbear.net 16 points 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago)

Wells: Cromwell acted on the basis of the constitution and in the name of constitutional order.

jesse-wtf

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The same guy who refers to the working class as sheep in animal farm.

[–] ReadFanon@hexbear.net 16 points 1 week ago (7 children)

Oh that's interesting. I'm gonna use that next time.

I read 1984 when I was young so it's been a long time and I never really got into it so it didn't leave a big enough impression on me that I could recall more than the broad brush strokes so this is handy info to have at my disposal.

At the risk of coming off as stuffy, I'm not a big fan of the internet neologisms because they're kinda cringey and we already have so many good euphemisms that we could use instead. (I guess it says something about literacy when the discourse demands a single word replacement which is prosaic instead of using something that has a little bit of metaphorical flair to it.) It always baffles me that someone who is mildly opposed to those neologisms, who refuses to use them, and who also is a very vocal critic of Orwell that takes any opportunity to shit on him ends up being the #1 defender of Orwell's work and of internet neologisms.

I really don't want to be in that position lol

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[–] PKMKII@hexbear.net 32 points 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago) (2 children)

There’s always been a problem with surface level vibes analysis of media, hence Reagan using “born in the USA” as a campaign song.

I think the difference these days is that the internet has made more people aware of the idea of subtext, allegory, metaphor, etc in media in a way that prior generations mostly didn’t even consider. But, the awareness of the idea wasn’t coupled with a greater education on how to evaluate media for those things. So it’s less that it’s gotten worse overall, than it is that people who previously weren’t exposing how bad they are at it are doing so on the regular now.

[–] Dort_Owl@hexbear.net 23 points 1 week ago (2 children)

the internet has made more people aware of the idea of subtext, allegory, metaphor, etc in media in a way that prior generations mostly didn’t even consider.

I always find it funny when the narrative is beating the audience over the head with a theme and meanwhile people are like "but what could the cup on the table mean?" theory crafting and its consequences.

[–] Wheaties@hexbear.net 16 points 1 week ago (1 children)

If Amazing Digital Circus is anything to go by, you might think people pay more attention to the background details than the dialog.

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[–] Wheaties@hexbear.net 18 points 1 week ago (2 children)

That's an interesting point I've never seen brought up before. I guess we'll never really know how much of the silent generation watched Twilight Zone and their only takeaway was "huh, weird show" and then never thought of it again.

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[–] built_on_hope@hexbear.net 29 points 1 week ago (3 children)

To add to all the excellent points here, I’d also like to lay the blame on the faux intellectual “gritty” amoral media that was popular in the 2010s. Shows and movies that had no message other than “everyone is a piece of shit deep down and that’s just the way the world is, kiddo”. Looking at you, Game of Thrones

I feel like these shows trained a whole generation of people to see “realism” as the only / highest standard of media, and neatly destroyed the need for media to have any coherent (let alone vaguely moral) underlying message or theme to be made. If meaningless slop is all you have access to, your ability to think critically about said slop is also diminished

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[–] ClassIsOver@hexbear.net 23 points 1 week ago

It feels as if the deluge of bullshit we're subjected to has filled our orifices so much that as a society, we can't tell what's what anymore.

During the 2024 US election cycle, the "left" (fucking Christ, that hurts to type) candidate had literally the same campaign platform that the candidate on the right (of the other candidate) had, and the difference they decided to capitalize on was that she'd do it better than he would. No difference in outcome, she just said he'd fuck it up somehow, and she was more capable.

Now I have relatives that think they're different for wanting her to run in 2028, and the only response I can think of is "Why, so you can watch her lose again?"

It's like they ignore every word that comes out of her mouth and then wonder why things never get better. I'm an asshole for voting for "throwing my vote away" on a socialist, because voting is what matters so goddamn much.

[–] trompete@hexbear.net 21 points 1 week ago (1 children)

I suck at media literacy, but I have gotten better. I can't imagine learning any of it without the internet, and so over the course of my live, my personal media literacy has improved. I imagine there's lots of people like me.

On the other hand, I know a bunch of people who supposedly studied literary criticism at uni, and they're mostly a bunch of liberal Zionist (including literal genocide apologia) and other such reactionary crap, and so I can only conclude that the main thing they are taught in these classes is propaganda and sophistry, and not how to actually critically read anything.

A couple of decades ago, these educated morons would have had a near monopoly on literary opinions, while the unwashed masses had no say. So, no, I do not think, at all, that people have gotten worse overall in media literacy.

[–] Damarcusart@hexbear.net 21 points 1 week ago (2 children)

On the other hand, I know a bunch of people who supposedly studied literary criticism at uni, and they're mostly a bunch of liberal Zionist (including literal genocide apologia) and other such reactionary crap, and so I can only conclude that the main thing they are taught in these classes is propaganda and sophistry, and not how to actually critically read anything.

Some people get a degree to learn, some people get a degree so they can insist that their interpretation of things is the "correct" one inherently because they are smarter than people who didn't go to uni.

[–] MayoPete@hexbear.net 19 points 1 week ago (2 children)

I think most people go to college these days for the higher wages / better jobs that supposedly comes with the degree. Whether you actually learn anything while there is secondary.

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[–] moss_icon@hexbear.net 21 points 1 week ago (5 children)

On a similar note, I can’t fucking stand those CinemaSins videos. Literal slop.

[–] godlessworm@hexbear.net 16 points 1 week ago (1 children)

i stopped watching those forever ago. so many times where whoever wrote the script just didnt get shit and counted it as a ‘sin’. plus the dumb ass self aware meta references he would count as sins. whats even the point then if you’re just gonna add shit on to be funny? that makes it way less interesting

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[–] daniyeg@hexbear.net 18 points 1 week ago (2 children)

for a fascist, reality doesn't shape their truth, it's their "truth" that shapes reality. people are not becoming more obtuse, the fascist are willingly misinterpreting media because to not do so is seen as weak. if a piece of media passes the vibe check, then everything in it must confirm their worldview. do not engage them just call them stupid and shame them for their stupid views. these people will not learn because they are not willing to learn, the only thing that will distance them from being a dumbass is by shaming them.

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[–] RedSturgeon@hexbear.net 16 points 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago)

I haven't come to any concrete conclusion, but there's a lot of potential factors at play.

Underfunded education, lack of need to pursue said education, then there's racism and IQ tests telling people that they are who they are born and hierarchy is a "natural" part of life.

There's lack of trust in each other and the good old alienation. if someone is speaking positive of X that must be because of X paid them, nobody would be doing this for free. Like the slogan goes: "If you're good don't do it for free!"

Information overload is another big one I think and how do we sort through this, what grants the speaker legitimacy? In the traditional media environment it's stuff like which platform your speaking on, perhaps your diploma. In the new internet media age it's the algorithm that grants you legitimacy.

I might edit and develop this further when I have time.

So the other important factor I wanted to add is how bad people have gotten at tolerating disagreements, which is a crucial skill for being able in a world with multiple interpretations. There's a lot of dogmatism, science has become dogmatic too, failing is viewed as an act of shame, wrong interoperations get you shamed, people are eager to find the perfect solution to the universe, the one correct interoperation. Naturally literacy would go down because in such a world, you no longer need to think at all. If there's only one correct solution, what's the point?

And there's nothing I can do to critique such a mindset, because I would simply be brushed aside as a naysayer. I don't even need to wirte the research again, because people have already done it. Karl Marx, Friedrich Engels, these people wrote science, it is absolutely meant to be taken literally, supposedly this is something that modernity values highly, yet they refuse to recon with the facts and in their tantrums burn the books, they end up resorting to dogma in order to make sense of it all. This is what the upper crust of society has been doing. If trickle down theory applies to anything it'd definitely be the ideology, not material wealth. This is why nothing makes sense anymore.

[–] BanMeFromPosting@hexbear.net 16 points 1 week ago

I dunno. I remember years ago on my first account here I made an effort post that went against the mainstream hexbear line of thought and I had to argue with a shitton of people about something I didn't even say. That was 4-5 years ago. I haven't experienced things getting significantly worse in that time. In my general experience it's mainly something I get when talking americans.

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