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This type of large-scale crawling should be considered a DDoS and the people behind it should be charged with cyber crimes and sent to prison.
If it’s disrupting their site, it is a crime already. The problem is finding the people behind it. This won’t be some guy on his dorm PC and they’ll likely be in places interpol can’t reach.
they’ll likely be in places interpol can’t reach
Like some Microsoft data center
Huawei
good luck with that! not only is a company doing it, which means no individual person will go to prison, but it's from a chinese company with no regard for any laws that might get passed
The people determining US legislation have said, "how can we achieve skynet if our tech trillionaire company sponsors can't evade copyright or content licensing?" But they also say if "we don't spend every penny you have on achieving US controlled Skynet, then China wins."
Speculating on "Huawei network can solve this", doesn't mean that all the bots are Chinese, but does confirm that China has a lot of AI research, and Huawei GPUs/NPUs are getting used, and successfully solving this particular "I am not a robot challenge".
It's really hard to call "amateur coding challenge" competition web site a national security threat, but if you hype Huawei enough, then surely the US will give up on AI like it gave up on solar, and maybe EVs. "If we don't adopt Luddite politics and all become Amish, then China wins" is a "promising" new loser perspective on media manipulation.
Applying the Computer Fraud and Abuse Act to corporations? Sign me up! Hey, they're also people, aren't they?
I really feel like scrapers should have been outlawed or actioned at some point.
But they bring profits to tech billionaires. No action will be taken.
No, the reason no action will be taken is because Huawei is a Chinese company. I work for a major US company that's dealing with the same problem, and the problematic scrapers are usually from China. US companies like OpenAI rarely cause serious problems because they know we can sue them if they do. There's nothing we can do legally about Chinese scrapers.
I use a tool that downloads a website to check for new chapters of series every day, then creates an RSS feed with the contents. Would this be considered a harmful scraper?
The problem with AI scrapers and bots is their scale, thousands of requests to webpages that the internal server cannot handle, resulting in slow traffic.
Does your tool respect the site’s robots.txt?
Unfortunately, robots.txt cannot express rate limits, so it would be an overly blunt instrument for things like GP describes. HTTP 429 would be a better fit.
Write TOS that state that crawlers automatically accept a service fee and then send invoices to every crawler owner.
Huawei is Chinese. There's literally zero chance a European company like Codeberg is going to successfully collect from a company in China over a TOS violation.
It's not even a company. It's a non-profit "eingetragener Verein". They have very limited resources, especially money because they purely live on membership fees and donations.
They typically don't include a billing address in the User Agent when crawling 🤣
Begun, the information wars have.
The wars have been fought and lost a while ago tbh
When you realize that you live in a cyberpunk novel. The AI is cracking the ICE. https://cyberpunk.fandom.com/wiki/Black_ICE
I love seeing how much influence William Gibson had on cyberpunk.
It's not intentional but the chap ended up writing works that defined both the Cyberpunk (Neuromancer) and Steampunk (The Difference Engine) genres.
Can't deny that influence.
Huh, why does Anubis use SHA256? It's been optimized to all hell and back.
Ah, they're looking into it: https://github.com/TecharoHQ/anubis/issues/94
I blocked almost all big players in hosting, China, Ruasia, Vietnam and now they're now bombarding my site with residential IP address from all over the world. They must be using compromised smart home devices or phones with malware.
Soon everything on the internet will be behind a wall.
This isn't sustainable for the ai companies, when the bubble pops it will stop.
In the mean time, sites are getting DDOS-ed by scrapers. One way to stop your site from getting scraped is having it be inaccessible... which is what the scalpers are causing.
Normally I would assume DDOS-ing is performed in order to take a site offline. But ai-scalpers require the opposite. They need their targets online and willing. One would think they'd be a bit more careful about the damage they cause.
But they aren't, because capitalism.
Seems like such a massive waste of bandwidth since it's the same work being repeated by many different actors to piece together the same dataset bit by bit.
Ah Capitalism! Truly the king of efficiency /s
Do we all want the fucking Blackwall from Cyberpunk 2077?
Fucking NetWatch?
Because this is how we end up with them.
....excuse me, I need to go buy a digital pack of cigarettes for the angry voice in my head.
Uuughhh I knew it'd always be a mouse and cat game, sincerely hope the Anubis devs figure out how to fuck up the AI crawlers again
Business idea: AWS, but hosted entirely within the computing power of AI web crawlers.
Reminds me of the "store data inside slow network requests for the in-transit duration". It was a fun article to read.
It's being investigated at least, hopefully a solution can be found. This will probably end up in a constantly escalating battle with the AI companies. https://github.com/TecharoHQ/anubis/issues/978
If someone just wants to download code from Codeberg for training, it seems like it'd be way more efficient to just clone the git repositories or even just download tarballs of the most-recent releases for software hosted on Codeberg than to even touch the Web UI at all.
I mean, maybe you need the Web UI to get a list of git repos, but I'd think that that'd be about it.
Then they'd have to bother understanding the content and downloading it as appropriate. And you'd think if anyone could understand and parse websites in realtime to make download decisions, it be giant AI companies. But ironically they're only interested in hoovering up everything as plain web pages to feed into their raw training data.
The same morons scrape Wikipedia instead of downloading the archive files which trivially can be rendered as web pages locally
I just thought that having a client side proof-of-work (or even only a delay) bound to the IP might deter the AI companies to choose to behave instead (because single-visit-per-IP crawlers get too expensive/slow and you can just block normal abusive crawlers). But they already have mind-blowing computing and money ressources and only want your data.
But if there was a simple-to-use integrated solution and every single webpage used this approach?
Believe me, these AI corporations have way too many IPs to make this feasible. I've tried per-IP rate limiting. It doesn't work on these crawlers.
I dont understand how challenging an AI by asking it to do some heavy computational stuff even makes sense... A computer is literally made to do computations, and AI is just a computer. 🤨
Wouldn't it make more sense to challenge the AI with a Voight-Kampff test? Ask it about baseball.
The scrapers are not actually an ai, they are just dumb scrapers there to get as much textual information as possible.
If they have to do Anubis tests, that is going to take more time to get the data they scrape. I suspect that they are probably paid per page they provide, so more time per page is less money for them.
The point is to make scraping expensive enough it isn't worth the trouble. The only reason AI scrapers are trying to get this data is because it's cheaper than the alternatives (e.g. generating synthetic data). Once it stops being cheaper, the smart scrapers will stop. The dumb scrapers don't matter because they don't have the talent to devise these kind of workarounds.
I run my own gitea instance on my own server and within the past week or so I've noticed it just getting absolutely nailed. One repo in particular, a Wayland WM I built. Just keeps getting hammered over and over by IPs in China.
Just keeps getting hammered over and over by IPs in China.
Simple solution: Block Chinese IPs!
Are those blocklists publicly available somewhere?
I would hope not. Kinda pointless if they become public
On the contrary. Open community based block lists can be very effective. Everyone can contribute to them and asphyxiate people with malicious intents.
If you think something like, "if the blocklist is available then malicious agents simply won't use that ips" I don't think if that makes a lot of sense. As the malicious agent will know any of their IPs being blocked as soon as they use them.
