this post was submitted on 08 Jan 2025

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Robert F. Kennedy, Jr. is NOT a “vaccine skeptic.” He is antivax. Period. (sciencebasedmedicine.org)

submitted 10 months ago by logos@sh.itjust.works to c/skeptic@sh.itjust.works

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[+] Apytele@sh.itjust.works 34 points 10 months ago* (last edited 10 months ago) (4 children)

[deleted]

[–] j4k3@lemmy.world 31 points 10 months ago (1 children)

That fits typical Republican corruption scams

[–] atzanteol@sh.itjust.works 13 points 10 months ago (1 children)

Wow, fighting conspiracy theories with conspiracy theories?

[+] Apytele@sh.itjust.works 18 points 10 months ago* (last edited 10 months ago) (2 children)

[deleted]

[–] atzanteol@sh.itjust.works 7 points 10 months ago (2 children)

I think it normalizes conspiratorial thinking. Better to teach proper critical thinking.

[–] grue@lemmy.world 7 points 10 months ago

The best option is that which is possible.

[–] Josey_Wales@lemm.ee 0 points 10 months ago* (last edited 10 months ago) (1 children)

How? A correct answer saves the world.

Edit: The most frustrating thing about this entire thread is that I wanted to have a conversation about implementing actual on the ground solutions to countering conspiracy theories and the response was to shut down the conversation.

In an attempt to answer my own question, maybe the solution to getting people to escape conspiracy theories is to avoid personal attacks (you’re Machiavelli) and other rhetorical devices and actually have a conversation divorced from ego about a topic.

If only there was a community for that?

[–] atzanteol@sh.itjust.works 3 points 10 months ago (1 children)

How is conspiratorial thinking helping the world right now?

[–] Josey_Wales@lemm.ee 0 points 10 months ago (2 children)

That’s a non answer. I never said conspiratorial thinking was helping the world. (However, in the example given it appears that it may have.)

What I asked was how do we implement your solution. It’s all well and good to point out problems. But if that problem is unavoidable it becomes the cost of doing business. I take your non answer to mean you don’t have one. That’s fine. I don’t either. In the example given a good result was achieved via a less than ideal way.

While we wait for the way to implement your solution I am willing to accept getting innocent children vaccinated by any means possible.

[–] taladar@sh.itjust.works 1 points 10 months ago (1 children)

Honestly, the situation we find ourselves in is because we applied your "solution" for decades while ignoring the long-term consequences of that kind of appeasement of illogical thinking.

[–] Josey_Wales@lemm.ee 1 points 10 months ago (1 children)

What solution? I said I don’t have one.

[–] taladar@sh.itjust.works 1 points 10 months ago* (last edited 10 months ago) (1 children)

It sounded to me like you were advocating for Apytele's view to counter conspiratorial thinking by giving them more made up conspiracies that happen to align with whatever short term goal you have at the time, basically to be content with having the wrong thought process reach the correct outcome for that short term goal.

[–] Josey_Wales@lemm.ee 1 points 10 months ago* (last edited 10 months ago)

I literally asked how to make people not act that way and said it is what would save the world.

No one that responded had an answer to how to implement the “solution” of getting people to have “the right thought process.” Conspiratorial thinking isn’t new. Simply saying people should be properly educated isn’t proposing an actual solution, it’s stating the obvious.

My point was that, until there is an actionable solution to achieve that result (which we are still struggling with as a species) I don’t have an issue with fighting fire with fire.

It’s fine to propose abstract ideas. The reason we are where we are as a species is that no one is able to put them into practice.

Edit to add example:

In the example the mom is an anti vaxer. The Dr. tricks her into vaxing kid. Kid grows up and can’t reconcile mom’s crazy ideas with her contrary actions. Kids starts questioning mom’s sanity. Kid starts searching for answers. Kid joins this community on lemmy. Kid sees this conversation. Kid says that’s what happened to me. Kid abandons conspiracies.

Or we as a species could simply tell mentally ill people they are mentally ill and expect the mentally ill brain to make a non mentally ill decision.

[–] atzanteol@sh.itjust.works 0 points 10 months ago (1 children)

In the example given a good result was achieved via a less than ideal way.

Machiavelli would be proud.

[–] Josey_Wales@lemm.ee 1 points 10 months ago (1 children)

Can’t tell if you mean that as a good or bad thing.

[–] atzanteol@sh.itjust.works 1 points 10 months ago (1 children)

Generally not a compliment...

[–] Josey_Wales@lemm.ee 1 points 10 months ago (1 children)

Why

[–] atzanteol@sh.itjust.works 1 points 10 months ago (1 children)

"The ends justify the means". Machiavelli justified the use of all manner of ruthless and immoral behavior for a prince to maintain control.

I thought this was a skeptics community. It seems I was mistaken.

[–] Josey_Wales@lemm.ee 1 points 10 months ago* (last edited 10 months ago) (1 children)

So you are characterizing my comment about using any means possible to vaccinate an innocent child that is unable to speak for themselves and is at danger die due to a mentally unstable parent’s belief with ruthless and immoral behavior?

How do you characterize letting that same child die because they are not vaccinated?

Edit: typo

[–] atzanteol@sh.itjust.works 1 points 10 months ago (1 children)

I'm not gonna play this "that's not what I said, no you said that" BS.

A skeptic community should be teaching critical thinking not spreading conspiracy theories. End of.

[–] Josey_Wales@lemm.ee 1 points 10 months ago (1 children)

I’m not playing anything. You can read it. You are responding to statements and arguments I am not making.

If your argument was “your comment is outside the scope of this community” than make that argument.

Be well.

[–] atzanteol@sh.itjust.works 1 points 10 months ago

I'm not gonna play this "that's not what I said, no you said that" BS.

A skeptic community should be teaching critical thinking not spreading conspiracy theories. End of.

[–] shalafi@lemmy.world 2 points 10 months ago

God. Damn. I'm all but certain I read that post.

[–] Anticorp@lemmy.world 3 points 10 months ago

That actually finally makes sense. I think you've solved the mystery.

[–] MirthfulAlembic@lemmy.world 2 points 10 months ago

This seems like a huge gamble if you're a pharma in the vaccine space. Existing vaccines have great economies of scale and are very reliable revenue when uptake is high and consistent. Introducing skepticism that reduces the number of people getting vaccines (since RFK lacks any nuance) is a great way to shoot yourself in the foot. The new patent vaccine would need to maintain high uptake to recoup the R&D costs.

You're also screwing a large group of billionaires to benefit a much smaller group of billionaires. Possible, but likely to make enemies.

[–] Anticorp@lemmy.world 15 points 10 months ago (1 children)

You'd think a position like the Secretary of Health and Human Services for the entire nation would require some sort of medical or sociology training, but nope! Not in this timeline.

[–] sugar_in_your_tea@sh.itjust.works 5 points 10 months ago

Well, the current one doesn't either:, Secretary Bacerra is a lawyer, the same as Robert F Kennedy Jr. The Secretary's job is to basically collect and summarize reports from their respective agencies for the President.

[–] Vinny_93@lemmy.world 10 points 10 months ago

Who goes hiking with an unvaccinated infant? His babble is almost as incoherent as Trump's.

[–] Ephera@lemmy.ml 9 points 10 months ago (1 children)

You know, occasionally I'm led to believe that we live in the 21st century, but then I read a quote like that and I'm reminded, nope, definitely Middle Ages still. I better go hunt some witches now.

[–] KyuubiNoKitsune@lemmy.blahaj.zone 5 points 10 months ago

They're called trans people now.

[–] Professorozone@lemmy.world 7 points 10 months ago (2 children)

I was vaccinated as a child. Does that mean I'm dead now? Cause I could be convinced either way.

[–] Anticorp@lemmy.world 5 points 10 months ago (1 children)

He was vaccinated too. Maybe we're all dead, that would actually explain a few things.

[–] Professorozone@lemmy.world 2 points 10 months ago

I had higher hopes for death.

[–] ZILtoid1991@lemmy.world 4 points 10 months ago

No, but autism is worse for these motherfuckers than death.

[–] jjjalljs@ttrpg.network 5 points 10 months ago (1 children)

It's like a trolley problem. If you do nothing, an RFK shaped train will speed down the tracks and kill untold innocents (and some maga assholes). If you pull the lever to try to stop it, you'll almost certainly die, and it's possible another train will be placed on the tracks later anyway.

So I don't know what to do. I pray to saint luigi.

[–] jaggedrobotpubes@lemmy.world 1 points 10 months ago (1 children)

Ideally, as many people who try to kill that many people are stopped.

RFK specifically can't be allowed to fuck with vaccines. That isn't, like, an industry shifting around. It's worse than life and death, it's brutal, chronic illness--preventable horrendous individual suffering on a mass scale.

[–] HeyThisIsntTheYMCA@lemmy.world 2 points 10 months ago

Yeah we thought guardrails were in place with covid but here we are

[–] WastingCommentSpace@sh.itjust.works 4 points 10 months ago (1 children)

I would be a vaccine skeptic if i could find anything about curing viruses skeptical. Fortunately or unfortunately im not stupid.

[–] PuddleOfKittens@sh.itjust.works 6 points 10 months ago (2 children)

You can be a skeptic and still come to the conclusion "vaccines work with no major problems, and should be mandated widely".

[–] WastingCommentSpace@sh.itjust.works 1 points 10 months ago

I can also not be a skeptic and do research anyway. I have a fair amount of confidence in scientists but not governments. Nor governments understandings of science. Nor the common persons understanding. Im skeptical on all those fronts. But science. Not so much.

[–] sugar_in_your_tea@sh.itjust.works 1 points 10 months ago

Yup, I'm a vaccine skeptic and get every pretty much every one that's offered, because it turns out they're totally worth it. But I do my research anyway because I'm not blindly injecting anything.

[–] wildcardology@lemmy.world 3 points 10 months ago

Only the best and the brightest from Donald's administration.