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submitted 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago) by BeamBrain@hexbear.net to c/askchapo@hexbear.net

I know that it's Chinese and it translates roughly as "white/Western left." Looking it up on the Chinese wiki, Google translate gives me... well, this:

It is used to describe people who support policies such as the abolition of the death penalty , [ 3 ] animal protection , environmental protection , body equality , skin equality , LGBT , feminism , vegetarianism , marijuana decriminalization , euthanasia , abortion and immigration , that is, people with cultural leftist ideas in the European and American world.

This paints baizuo as something akin to American conservative terms like "woke" or "SJW." On the other hand, I've seen baizuo on Hexbear a few times, but in those contexts it seemed to mean something closer to "succdem" or "Western chauvinist" rather than the definition above. Obviously, a term used to insult feminists, LGBT people, and environmentalists would be incredibly out of place on this site, hence why I'm asking about it rather than taking a machine-translated Wiki article at face value.

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[-] CloutAtlas@hexbear.net 28 points 1 month ago

Honestly didn't know the etymology coming from an unhinged weirdo, but I've generally used it (irl mind you, I'm in China) as a handwaive when family asks about why X in the west is bad/inefficient/non-existent and "right wingers" isn't the cause.

Like what's with the aversion to nuclear power? Combination of 白左 and also the fossil fuel lobby.

Or if a policy that does (ostensibly) benefit poor people but is means tested to death, and they ask why it's set up like that. 白左

But I don't really often hear it in China. My family is just weirdly politically engaged due to being former Party members and revolutionaries. The average guy in the street is absolutely not going to use the phrase ever.

Yeah sure weirdos on XHS will also use it to refer to any aspect of the Western "left" they see online that they disagree with, but it's wholly inconsistent. Could be addressing Ultras. Or trots. Or liberals. Or redditors. Or nazbols. Or socdems. Or demsocs. I feel like XHS comment sections are like 2 steps away from calling Shanghai 白左.

[-] Awoo@hexbear.net 18 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago)

Like what's with the aversion to nuclear power? Combination of 白左 and also the fossil fuel lobby.

The aversion to nuclear power here in europe is mostly the cultural scars that chernobyl had on Europe along with various different instances of massive polluting by major companies and nobody believing any for-profit company could be trustworthy enough to manage it safely.

It can't be understated how significant Chernobyl was on european mindsets about nuclear power. That shit legitimately did nearly destroy europe and people's attitudes to nuclear power were very heavily affected by it. Those attitudes then passed on.

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[-] DamarcusArt@lemmygrad.ml 8 points 1 month ago

I feel like XHS comment sections are like 2 steps away from calling Shanghai 白左.

Isn't this the general sentiment there already? I thought they already thought of Shanghai as honorary westerners, or trying way too hard to be westerners.

[-] SorosFootSoldier@hexbear.net 24 points 1 month ago

I always thought it was a rightoid gotcha to own the leftists with their own logic of "China is trad and hates you".

[-] AssortedBiscuits@hexbear.net 21 points 1 month ago

Baizuo was either came up by or came up by a fan of some reactionary netizen who's famous for some unhinged ideology called Auntology. You can read a summary of Auntology for yourself. It's just unhinged reactionary shit. A weird part of it is that he actually wants to balkanize China. I think a lot of those balkanized China maps floating around were made by his shitty fandom. So the weird thing about him is he isn't a Chinese ultranationalist (he doesn't think China should exist) or a Han chauvinist (he apparently thinks Han isn't a real ethnicity) but some Chinese reactionary who wants to balkanize China.

The bai in baizuo is also from baichi, which means idiot. So, baizuo doesn't just mean white left but also idiotic left. A more fitting translation of baizuo would be white leftoid or white left*rd.

That term was always sus.

[-] Dirt_Owl@hexbear.net 14 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago)

It's right wing term used by a rightoid minority as far as I can tell

[-] awth13@hexbear.net 8 points 1 month ago

The bai in baizuo is also from baichi, which means idiot. So, baizuo doesn't just mean white left but also idiotic left. A more fitting translation of baizuo would be white leftoid or white left*rd.

That’s not how Chinese language works. Just because 白 (bái) can be part of a word that means “idiot” doesn’t mean that it is infused with the meaning of idiocy. That’s like saying “the bai in baizuo is also from mingbai, which means clear/reasonable so baizuo doesn’t just mean white left but also reasonable left”. Which is obviously absurd lol. In most contexts, 白 means “white” and nothing else, although there are obviously many cultural associations with the colour white that are layered on top of that.

[-] AssortedBiscuits@hexbear.net 8 points 1 month ago

The connection between baizuo and baichi was established by those reactionaries. Like, you can say that baizuo is just an abbreviated form of baichi zuopai (idiotic left). "bai = white and zuo = left, so baizuo = white left" is something you would say if you just ran each character individually through Google Translate. Nobody calls the Black Panthers "heizuo" even though the two characters translated separately is "Black left."

My broader point is that the term, due to its reactionary origins, isn't as innocently translated as "white left."

[-] RNAi@hexbear.net 5 points 1 month ago

Hmm a "soyboy wojak" situation

[-] AssortedBiscuits@hexbear.net 4 points 1 month ago

Or how "aquaponics" is "aquaculture hydroponics."

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[-] BeamBrain@hexbear.net 8 points 1 month ago

what-the-hell What the fuck, why is it being used as an insult on Hexbear

[-] TerribleHands@hexbear.net 13 points 1 month ago

Words can have different meanings in different contexts. I've heard some of my Chinese leftist friends use it to mock western leftists in the same way we do here. Might've been a reactionary that came up with it but once it's out in the world it's a free-for-all.

[-] SocialistDovahkiin@hexbear.net 11 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago)

Ehhhh, when the definitions are so close but the differences are so important that gets a little shaky, because confusing the two definitions is extremely easy. A lot of the context in which I can imagine a hexbear user using the word would make total sense with the more reactionary definition, just as much as with the better and less reactionary one, so it would be easy to misinterpret as more reactionary. And even if everyone involved knows what it means it could open up wiggle room for reactionaries to slip into site discussions, by using the term's plausible deniability to get away with terrible statements.

"Western chauvinistic leftist" or language equivalent is generally just clearer and seems to have less murky and questionable of a background.

Plus some words just inherently emanate Hitler particles. I don't know if this counts as such a word necessarily, but the definition given on this post comes close enough to extremely strange Nazi-Bolshevik brainworms to be uncomfortable. If the term literally is referring to mental capacity and not levels of chauvinism or evil than it is definitely a Hitler particle emanating phrase.

I'm sure your friends mean no harm, it just isn't something I personally think should be given the complete green light to be used. (Here, probably fine in friend contexts and stuff) Maybe like a amber light for caution.

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[-] PM_ME_YOUR_FOUCAULTS@hexbear.net 5 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago)

Auntology as a handle is really funny though, if it's a pun on hauntology

[-] HumanBehaviorByBjork@hexbear.net 5 points 1 month ago

auntology? ain't that what mark fisher was always on about?

[-] Awoo@hexbear.net 19 points 1 month ago

I've actually never seen baizuo used in the context that wiki is suggesting, at least not on hexbear or reddit. When liberals use it they've always intended it as a semi-racist "Why do you support china if you're white?" insult which betrays their nationalism, when hexbears use it it's always been about chauvinism.

[-] DragonBallZinn@hexbear.net 3 points 1 month ago

Facts. It never is used to call someone a hypocrite, it's always used as a new way to call any white person that doesn't immediately fall in line a race traitor.

[-] grandepequeno@hexbear.net 8 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago)

A lot of those issues are in fact only mostly hegemonic in the western left, and even that is a recent thing that I do think it's probably related to how we can't really get anything done with economic issues.

In the rest of the world where life is generally worse it doesn't shock me that other things are prioritized, and in some countries where these issues are used as cudgels by imperial core countries (to condition aid or policy) opposing them passes as an anti-imperialist, or at least pro-sovereignty, cause.

It's also true that someone who supports all these culturally left positions doesn't necessarily support other historically leftists causes like anti-imperialism and anti-militarism (anti-nato), so I guess some chinese people invented a term for that kind of leftist, which, from the outside I guess if you count the "left" very broadly from center-left socdems to progressive liberals it would seem like that's all the "white left" is.

[-] CliffordBigRedDog@hexbear.net 7 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago)

Just an aside the Chinese Language Wiki is blocked in mainland China and mainly maintained by taiwanese and hong konger users so take that into account

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[-] HammerAndSickle@lemmygrad.ml 4 points 1 month ago

Global South need some way of making fun of people from far right countries larping as socialists.

These people can't build working class power (and social levelling would threaten their privilege) so they just aim to be moralists on the internet to make themselves feel good.

Western leftism isn't leftism, it's the thing that killed it.

[-] Lemmygradwontallowme@hexbear.net 6 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago)

Western leftism isn't leftism, it's the thing that killed it.

Oh, would you shut up? Did you forget the Marxism that came with Marxism-Leninism? (Admittedly, Marx and Engels would've had some western brainworms to deal with; I understand if yer referring to modern-day leftists who align with western foreign policy)

Oh and speaking of

Global South need some way of making fun of people from far right countries larping as socialists.

Apparently, it comes from one of those damned Chinese reactionaries that China should've cracked down more upon

Communication researcher Fang Kecheng believes that the term first appeared in an article published by a Renren user, right-wing libertarian and market fundamentalist named "Li Shuo" titled "The Pseudo-morality of Western White Leftists and Chinese Patriotic Scientists", criticizing Western leftists who sympathize with Communist China (citing Chomsky and Yang Zaohanchun ), mainly referring to the left wing in economic and political thought [ 5 ] [ 7 ] [ a ] .

cringe

After evolution and conceptual transformation, the term "left" now only refers to the left and right on social issues, and has nothing to do with the left and right in economic thought. During the 2016 US presidential election , "white leftists" began to be widely used by Chinese netizens [ 8 ] .

This is like the evolution of the Terry Davis term, used to refer to feds, starting with 'glow' (Ctrl + 4)

[-] queermunist@lemmy.ml 5 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago)

"Western Marxism" can be distinguished as a discreet ideology because it's literally Marxism with only Western thought. Marx was carried forward by so many non-Western thinkers into a more revolutionary and more complete theory, but Western Marxism avoids all those yucky extremists so it can be taught in Western Universities.

It's where you get so-called Marxist who support every failed revolution but who denounce actually existing socialism.

[-] Awoo@hexbear.net 6 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago)

It's where you get so-called Marxist who support every failed revolution but who denounce actually existing socialism.

The only people I know that call themselves marxist but fit this description now are either trots(not all of them though) or r/ultraleft.

[-] Lemmygradwontallowme@hexbear.net 5 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago)

"Western Marxism" can be distinguished as a discreet ideology because it's literally Marxism with only Western thought.

I apologize, it's a gut reaction, I'm just uncomfortable with now using the term "baizuo", when it has such reactionary brainworms... you know

I am opposed to western leftism, due to its anti-AES, idealist tendencies, and pro-western foreign policy, but I don't like it when homegrown reactionaries use the term to not only bash them but us as well...

[-] queermunist@lemmy.ml 3 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago)

That's why Western Marxism or Western leftism is actually the best thing to call it. Leaves no room for confusion for reactionaries to use for their cryptofash bullshit

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[-] SocialistDovahkiin@hexbear.net 5 points 1 month ago

Yes, but that's clearly not the only use of the term.

[-] DragonBallZinn@hexbear.net 3 points 1 month ago

Basically a slur for white people made by the people that claim they love white people to punish any white people that don’t immediately fall in line.

[-] DamarcusArt@lemmygrad.ml 5 points 1 month ago

I mean, honestly, would probably be good for us to get a taste of our own medicine for a change.

[-] DragonBallZinn@hexbear.net 4 points 1 month ago

For sure, but I always find it funny that the biggest source of slurs for white people come from mfs who claim they want to "help" us.

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this post was submitted on 24 Nov 2024
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