66
submitted 1 month ago by sneak100@hexbear.net to c/games@hexbear.net

Quite a good breakdown by Laura Kate Dale of Nintendo's handling of recent games featuring playable women characters from franchises usually headed up by men i.e. recent Peach game and upcoming Legend of Zelda game featuring the titular Zelda.

Featuring such Aonuma bangers as:

If we have Princess Zelda as the main character who fights, then what is Link going to do?

The triforce is made up of Princess Zelda, Ganon and Link. Princess Zelda is obviously female; if we made Link a female, we thought that would mess with the balance of the triforce - that's why we decided not to do it.

We feel like what takes priority is this idea of gameplay. If it turns out that particular gameplay we're trying to bring to fruition would be best served by having Zelda take that role, then it's possible that that could be a direction we could take.

i.e. Zelda has featured exclusively MANLY gameplay up to this point btw

top 50 comments
sorted by: hot top controversial new old
[-] LaGG_3@hexbear.net 59 points 1 month ago

The triforce is made up of Princess Zelda, Ganon and Link. Princess Zelda is obviously female; if we made Link a female, we thought that would mess with the balance of the triforce - that's why we decided not to do it.

The Triforce has to be gender balanced, that's why Link is canonically NB

[-] BeamBrain@hexbear.net 34 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago)

If we have Princess Zelda as the main character who fights, then what is Link going to do?

I never thought I'd utter the sentence "Do what Wand of Gamelon did," but...

[-] UlyssesT@hexbear.net 20 points 1 month ago

"Do what Wand of Gamelon did,"

[-] BeamBrain@hexbear.net 15 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago)

Remembering the context of this moment and honestly it would own if Zelda brought that kind of energy to the table again

[-] sneak100@hexbear.net 8 points 1 month ago

Haha yeah it gets brought up in the vid too. She also talks about a more recent CDi-Zelda-like game —Arzette: The Jewel of Faramore. It actually seems really cool, hearing about it made me want to play it.

[-] Gay_Tomato@hexbear.net 34 points 1 month ago

Not letting Zelda be playable in her own storyline unironically ruins Tears of the Kingdom.

[-] sneak100@hexbear.net 24 points 1 month ago

I haven't played TotK, but this is kinda what I hated about BotW too — other than the initial "get the four people to help you do the thing" conceit, the main story is made up of you remembering a more interesting story from a different time, in which you are standing around in the background for the most part

[-] Gay_Tomato@hexbear.net 15 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago)

the main story is made up of you remembering a more interesting story from a different time, in which you are standing around in the background for the most part

Its even more inexcusable in the sequel. Imagine if sonic generations made all of modern sonic's stages cutscenes, then tried to do the above for the second time because "time travel nonsense."

This coupled with the cowards at Nintendo

spoilerconjuring up a new Ganondorf because finally ending this man would make investors sad or something among other things makes TOK feel narratively pointless. It also makes breath of wild feel pointless retroactively (kinda like the new star wars trilogy without director shuffling to even blame for this mess.)

[-] UlyssesT@hexbear.net 16 points 1 month ago

It felt like a more tedious Breath of the Wild with a love-it-or-too-bad building mechanic.

[-] UlyssesT@hexbear.net 34 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago)

say-the-line-bart-1

say-the-line-bart-2 "A bibeo bame from the 90s had a prophecy of genetic destiny and nominative determinism with biotruths that must be obeyed forever and ever."

[-] sneak100@hexbear.net 14 points 1 month ago

Trust me, we definitely couldn't possibly retcon any of this important gender stuff like we've done a million times with other things

[-] UlyssesT@hexbear.net 16 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago)

All those pretenses of innovation being why they can't make any more F-Zero games (and Star Fox, and more), and they're more than fine with constant resets to zero in Hyrule and the same three people doing the same damn things over and over again.

I remember being really hopeful, even excited, for how different Wind Waker seemed to be going... until the cool new pirate girl character was Zelda all along because no one else is allowed to have that much importance in that story role and then she was whisked off to be imperiled and in need of saving, AGAIN. lonk

[-] sneak100@hexbear.net 10 points 1 month ago

Oof, yeah that stings. Classic Nintendo tho. It's almost like they view these characters as some kind of archetype that repeats itself across time - Link is the hero, Ganon is the villain, Zelda is the girl. So then if someone is getting kidnapped, well that's Zelda's role, couldn't be anyone else of course

[-] UlyssesT@hexbear.net 11 points 1 month ago

I've had entire struggle sessions in the past about that, here included.

Some people believe that because things have been that way for the Zelda franchise that they could only have been that way and can only be that way forever after. morshupls

[-] sneak100@hexbear.net 4 points 1 month ago

A peculiar case of capitalist realism. Reminds me of the dull, fan pandering hollywood remakes like the recent Avatar live action show, where the people working on it have no idea what makes the original great and just end up reproducing the signifiers of the story ("omg it's that character I know!", "I found the master sword!", "the princess is getting kidnapped!") without the substance to back it up - it's like one huge reference to the previous work.

And then when someone dares to play with investors' blood pressure and rethink the formula a little bit (like BotW) it gets seen as incredibly innovative, because the norm is for the industry to be stagnant asf. Indies stay winning tbh

[-] BurgerPunk@hexbear.net 33 points 1 month ago

If we have Princess Zelda as the main character who fights, then what is Link going to do?

Whenever Link isn't around all the other characters should be asking, "where's Link."

[-] UlyssesT@hexbear.net 16 points 1 month ago

Link must go; his people need him.

[-] sneak100@hexbear.net 12 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago)

where's Link

The upcoming Zelda game answers this question with "Possessing the princess whenever she needs a man to show her how to use a sword"

[-] UlyssesT@hexbear.net 9 points 1 month ago

"Possessing the princess whenever she needs a man to show her how to use a sword"

That's a fine Nintendo writer excuse...

[-] SnowySkyes@hexbear.net 9 points 1 month ago

Wait, you're not serious, right? Please say you're not serious.

[-] sneak100@hexbear.net 10 points 1 month ago

I am unfortunately serious. It doesn't feature combat as the main way to interact with the world, but it does feature a swordfighter mode for zelda, during which she is posessed by link's ghost and is therefore able to swing a sword now. She couldn't do that on her own ofc because girl.

[-] sneak100@hexbear.net 8 points 1 month ago

Ego level 9000

[-] KnilAdlez@hexbear.net 23 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago)

If it's such a worry, maybe people wouldn't ask for a Zelda game if Nintendo wasn't nigh ceaselessly shafting their only female protagonist

[-] UlyssesT@hexbear.net 17 points 1 month ago

:AgonySamus:

[-] peppersky@hexbear.net 7 points 1 month ago

I'm pretty sure they started making Metroid games again like 7 years ago and there's a new one coming out just next year.

[-] KnilAdlez@hexbear.net 6 points 1 month ago

I said nigh. But in the past 14 years we have gotten 1 new game and 1 remake. And the game before that was Other M.

load more comments (2 replies)
[-] UlyssesT@hexbear.net 22 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago)

Nintendo... weird with women protagonists

Fire Emblem's had some fucked up shit in it, gameplay included, particularly the touchscreen "morale" system. kombucha-disgust

(CW: homophobia)

spoilerAnd I'm not letting go of that "oh no I'm a lesbian but I want to mate with senpai so you have to cure me with a potion! If you're a female character though, not interested" shit either. susie-baffled

[-] ashinadash@hexbear.net 18 points 1 month ago

Anyone who's ever tried to make me play Fire Emblem is a war criminal angery

[-] UlyssesT@hexbear.net 14 points 1 month ago

I liked Shining Force overall, so I was curious about Fire Emblem but the games I played kept straying into royal essentialism shit and a lot of mandatory breeding as gameplay subtext which is just... ech. It's like the setting wanted to be (contextually) fanservice first and then built up a fiction and game around that.

[-] ashinadash@hexbear.net 13 points 1 month ago

but the games I played kept straying into royal essentialism shit and a lot of mandatory breeding as gameplay subtext which is just... ech.

Can't believe how Just Like Me Fr Fr this is powercry-1 I fuckin kinda hate Fire Emblem tbh. Shining Force is way cooler I'm p sure.

[-] UlyssesT@hexbear.net 10 points 1 month ago

Shining Force was a wonderful series for its time, but I'm unsure how appealing it'd be to you this many years later.

This is about as modern as the series gets, if that helps.

https://youtu.be/_900EwYcZ5s?t=7156

[-] ashinadash@hexbear.net 9 points 1 month ago

I wanna play the Saturn SFIII trilogy! That was a banger Majuular video.

I actually started with Sword of Hajya on the Game Gear, which was cute. I think SFII would be fun too honestly.

[-] UlyssesT@hexbear.net 7 points 1 month ago

Majuular delivers for sure.

I wish I had a Game Gear as a kid; I was in awe of it during the Game Boy era (which I also didn't have) kitty-birthday-sad

load more comments (1 replies)
load more comments (4 replies)
[-] sneak100@hexbear.net 9 points 1 month ago

Ew, I was actually thinking of playing that at some point. Appreciate the warning

[-] UlyssesT@hexbear.net 9 points 1 month ago

I know that isn't a deal breaker for some people, but that fanservice pandering is mandatory for optimal gameplay (and in some key moments, to progress at all) and I put it down and never came back.

[-] sneak100@hexbear.net 9 points 1 month ago

Yeah I struggle to look past those kind of things, so I genuinely do appreciate it. £50 saved lol

[-] UlyssesT@hexbear.net 16 points 1 month ago

the balance of the triforce

I HATE THE THERMIAN ARGUMENT

I HATE THE THERMIAN ARGUMENT

[-] GalaxyBrain@hexbear.net 14 points 1 month ago

Prior to watching the video comment but as a they/them who had played every Zelda game, used to buy and sell retro games in the early 2010s and really knows the hell out of Nintendo and it's fans, always make link androgynous and pick pronouns at the start. The character was literally designed for the player to project themselves onto hence the super on the nose name. I would add they should make link female for one game before settling on just assigning the pronouns to an androgynous link which barely requires any changes to the standard character model. And in the games link is a child, just give pronoun options, the character is like 8-12, don't be weird about it gamers.

[-] sneak100@hexbear.net 13 points 1 month ago

Yeah the idea of a female link is not that wild and definitely makes a lot of sense. The video brings it up as something the fans were half expecting instead of a princess zelda game because of some promo art that looked like it portrayed a more femme, but still androgynous link. Turns out, nope, nintendo says that's just our main manly man link smh

[-] GalaxyBrain@hexbear.net 8 points 1 month ago

Yeah, I remember that from early botw videos and I was kinda hyped to see a female Link

[-] UlyssesT@hexbear.net 13 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago)

Imagine a Prince Zelda with some JoJo energy for flavor.

Nintendo's suits babble about how F-Zero can't be made any more because it's not possible for them "innovate" it further but they keep blowing up Hyrule and rehashing that tiresome prophecy shit.

[-] Awoo@hexbear.net 9 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago)

I really kinda get their point about F-Zero though? What new thing would you do with it?

The prophecy and themes of zelda might rehash every game but the gameplay itself always has a unique gimmick.

Ocarina - first 3d game

Majora - timey wimey loop gimmick

Wind Waker - The best sailing/pirate combat game to have ever been made and you can't deny it.

Twilight Princess - Transformation

Skyward Sword - Motion controls (the worst gimmick here and the weakest of all the titles imo)

Breath of the Wild - Physics based and open world combat

Tears of the Kingdom - Completely gamebreaking contraptions

There is a distinct gimmick here that actually warrants "this is a new and definitely different game to play" each time, even if the story beats and prophecy and good vs evil is rehashed each time.

[-] UlyssesT@hexbear.net 12 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago)

I really kinda get their point about F-Zero though? What new thing would you do with it?

Fully flight sections, perhaps, like soaring between fully divided tracks or even going into space or doing atmospheric re-entries during a race. How about on-track power allocation like a 90s X-Wing game? Maybe even some combat elements, like Rock and Roll Racing, like laser blasts and mines and countermeasures to both? That's just off the top of my head.

Mario Kart's been redone many times with less "innovation" than that between some titles.

I think they had enough people and enough budget to come up with that and more and they just don't want to because Zeldarinos go brrrr brrrrrrrrrrrr and I still stand by that.

[-] Awoo@hexbear.net 5 points 1 month ago

I mean yeah the reason they can always find something for Zelda is definitely the money printer. But F-Zero is more rigidly controlled in terms of "what gameplay can we add?" because it's a racing game and always needs to adhere to being a racing game.

Ironically I think the best direction to go with F-Zero is actually to NOT make a racing game but instead make a Captain Falcon game that is open world bounty hunter stuff and simply has racing as an element of it. A story arc where he enters the races because it gets him closer to his target who is in charge of the races and only the winners get to meet them.

People would love a 3d action game with Falcon.

[-] UlyssesT@hexbear.net 10 points 1 month ago

I'd be fine with your idea but I think what I already suggested, in a racing game, would work and would potentially open the series wide open to new fresh interest.

Rock and Roll Racing was a surprise hit for its time; F-Zero doing something like that with its own flair and style and more spaceyness would be amazing.

[-] LaGG_3@hexbear.net 5 points 1 month ago

Didn't Rock and Roll Racing have super light management mechanics in the GP mode where you could spend money to improve your car between races?

load more comments (4 replies)
[-] sneak100@hexbear.net 4 points 1 month ago

What new thing would you do with it?

There are lots of people young enough to have never seen a new F-Zero game be put out on a console they have access to, so imo that's all they'd have to do to make big bucks, even if it's just pretty much the same game with shinier graphics

load more comments (1 replies)
[-] peppersky@hexbear.net 8 points 1 month ago

I'm going to put myself on some thin ice here, but a lot of the representation talk in gaming, including the discussions surrounding The Legend of Zelda seems pretty reductive: I don't know if there is much progress in a world where we simply change the surface-level signs of representation of a game, when the gameplay and the mechanics of interacting with the gameworld stay the exact same from game to game. If the form is seen as unchangeable and we can only have variations in content, gaming is dead as a medium and any changes in representation will fail to matter (although admittedly most artforms are as dead under late-stage capitalism).

[-] sneak100@hexbear.net 10 points 1 month ago

I completely agree with you and it actually is exciting in a way to see the zelda formula messed with in this way - I'll be the first to hate on combat being the primary way you interact with the world around you. The problem is that it comes across like nintendo is only changing things up because girl game, and the mechanics they do change end up feeling sexist asf when viewed in that context. At the end of the day, you're still put in a role where you identify with and play as a royal, which I don't find nearly as exciting as the person in the vid.

load more comments (2 replies)
load more comments
view more: next ›
this post was submitted on 06 Sep 2024
66 points (97.1% liked)

games

20495 readers
255 users here now

Tabletop, DnD, board games, and minecraft. Also Animal Crossing.

Rules

founded 4 years ago
MODERATORS