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this post was submitted on 26 Jan 2024
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the_dunk_tank
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It's the dunk tank.
This is where you come to post big-brained hot takes by chuds, libs, or even fellow leftists, and tear them to itty-bitty pieces with precision dunkstrikes.
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Truly honest question here so I can understand you: who are you voting for then? Are you ok with a man who has no problem calling for a genocide of his own right here in the US as well as hunting down and killing/hauling people for disagreeing with him? What real alternative is there right now in 2024? Any situation where people are killing others like what's happening to Palestine is unacceptable absolutely and unconditionally. But does that mean we should welcome a regime that is going to do the same here to people like you and me on principle?
Basically, what are you planning to do? All I saw in this reply was "I'm not like you and you can't make me be like you." What are you planning to do to enact the change YOU want to see?
Withhold your vote until one of the candidates withdraws support for the genocide. That's democracy. Make them earn your vote.
Why is it worse if something happens to someone in the US? This stupid nationalist framing is what fools you into thinking things like the Bidrn/nato aggression towards Russia and China is actually a good thing and destroying the lives of billions of non-American workers is fine.
7th>Are you ok with a man who has no problem calling for a genocide of his own right here in the US as well as hunting down and killing/hauling people for disagreeing with him?
So no one here agrees with accelerationism. But I genuinely beleive that people like you will only take action when you are personally affected. You will not take action or even apeak out against your guy because "the other guy will do worse". But see, I think democrats will actually fight harder against fascism if they arent busy defending the guy upholding it it.
You live in a country that had NO alternative to genocide, you say so yourself. Does that sound like a democracy? Why should I care about voting if its not a democracy?
Trying to get people to realize that the hamsterwheel they are running in will kill us all regardless if the head guy is orange or not. My only real skill is being able to educate others.
What are YOU gonna do besides :vote: for 99% hilter over 100% hitler? If things are as bad as you say they are (imo they're worse), and thats your ONLY plan. Then from the bottom of my heart, fuck off.
people like you will only take action when you are personally affected.
People like me? You don't know a whole lot about me. I am a 30 something father of 2 who works every day to try and get people to realize the bullshit we are in. I think Biden is an old out of touch asshole in league with big corpo as are all the rest of the Democrats except maybe a few in current fed government. I also know for a fact that our socialist policies are being tanked on purpose by both sides in a lot of ways in order to make communism seem misguided at best and evil at worst by comparison.
What I want more than anything is for my kids and their friends, and the rest of humanity for that matter to grow up in a stable and healthy environment.
How I feel right now though is that we have a million fires burning right now, between rampant fascism, genocide, misplaced hate and dehumanization of minorities, not to mention end stage capitalism gobbling up the base that supports it and a climate that will destroy us because we cannot make headway to save ourselves because of these big corporations and rich fucks.
But more than anything right now, I don't want my kids to be fatherless because I disagree with an orange man. I don't disagree with any of your thoughts about where we are and how the world is, and I also know and hate that a vote for Biden is a vote for support of the IDF's killing of Palestinians, but allowing Trump to win won't change that, all it will do is bring additional fascist policies further into the open and bring them right here.
What would you do in my position? As a parent to children who have no part in any of this shit? I don't defend Biden. At all. All human life is sacred, and I will continue to do what I can to stop killing wherever it might happen. Including the US.
Who says this is a democracy? Reagan, Citizens United and so on have gotten rid of that.
Thank you for your perspective.
You're absolutely right about this and I'm glad you understand what many, many liberals fail to get. And what's sad is that even the few dems that aren't completely in bourgeois pockets are either ineffectual or get bullied into falling in line with the rest of the party (ie your Bernies and AOCs)
The depressing reality is that as the contradictions of capitalism continue heighten and give way to outright fascism, the environment they know now is only going to get worse and worse. So long as your previous point remains true, the material conditions of the US with only degrade, not improve. "The master's tools cannot dismantle the master's house"
Trump's and Biden's records on, for example, LGBT rights, are essentially the same, Trump is just much louder about his disdain because it gets the hogs in his support base frothing at the mouth. Trump promised to build the wall but Biden's actually built more of it than he did. Liberals love to point to the chud-majority Supreme Court as an example of why we must Vote Blue No Matter Who while ignoring that RBG was too arrogant to retire under Obama when it actually made sense to, which may have saved Roe v Wade. The entire system of governance built over 200 years ago by wealthy genociding white slaveowners is never going to produce a candidate that actually makes life better for the average American, which is why we believe it must be dismantled entirely.
I refuse to support any candidate that promises "nothing will fundamentally change", especially when that's the only promise of his Biden has actually made good on. There's no reason to believe he won't just roll over and let the chuds keep dismantling every semblance of minority rights, and even join in with them at times, so he will not get my vote. And this is all aside from his explicit support of genocide in Palestine, which was already reason enough to fully condemn him.
You agree that this isn't a democracy, but you're worrying about who communists will vote for? Have you considered that your worldview is completely incoherent?
supporting butcher biden is not the only way to prevent trump's election. Biden could heel-turn (not just make empty promises of one after the election), the democrats could run someone else who doesn't murder children. how the fuck is it our responsibility to make the democrats win an election they're not trying to win themselves?
And Biden hasn't done a single goddamn thing to fix literally any of those things.
Im sorry and it sucks, but the future timeline where we live in peace, where our children get to enjoy peace, was stolen from us long ago.
If you think the systems at play wont take you away from your kids because a dem(that you still disagree with) is in the whitehouse, I must warn you to be much more careful.
Also lol this country was NEVER a democracy. There has never been proper representation.
Your nation is terminal. The only way out is for it to collapse. My only wish is for it to end relatively peacefully and not in nuclear flame. But I hope to one day wake up and see "The United States of America" be referred to in past tense. Like "The Roman Empire" or "The Ottoman Empire" or "CHAZ".
Sincerely you need to vote third party and pray that enough of your compatriots come to the same conclusion that it will have a meaningful impact.
Similarly, you can try as you can to withdraw from the system by consuming less / more thoughtfully, even growing your own food, and also pray that enough of your compatriots do the same that it will have a meaningful impact. The start would be to participate in boycotts, and upon realising that there is no ethical consumption under capitalism, do your best to boycott everything else. Within reason. You have yourself and your family to look after and your happiness is important.
You can also give your money / attention to other orgs / communities such as legal defence for BLM, get involved with unions or give your support to those who do. This is I think what people mean when they say organise.
I understand your perspective but you are still in danger under Biden. Not only does your vote literally not matter because the system is rigged but even if you somehow managed to elect Biden he will just continue to let the right take away more of your rights without doing anything about it like they did during this term. That's where the problem in your reasoning is, electing Biden won't hold back the right, they will get what they want regardless. The only thing that can truly help is organizing to protect yourself and others like you.
The Democrats have proven time and time again that they won't lift a fucking finger to protect anyone, even those they claim to support, from violence. They'll tut and wag their finger, but will never actually step in to protect trans rights, for instance. They won't when they're in power, and they won't when they're not. Roe v Wade was broken up under a Democratic president. Vicious anti-queer laws were passed country wide under a Democratic president. The Democrats didn't do shit
"Oh but the President's power is limited", "oh but those are state level affairs", "oh but-" shut the fuck up. Either the office of the president is powerful enough for the threats you talk about to be credible, or it's weak enough that a president can't stop those threats. You get to choose one, not both. And frankly, any fucking country where the President doesn't have an ability or will to bring the provinces/states of that country to heel is a failed country
If the Democrats gave half a shit, they'd be fighting tooth and nail for trans rights across the country. They would use every legal method, every grey area, they would drag the Republican state senators into the oval office and threaten to CIA coup their ass if they don't knock it off. If trans rights or a genocide of some group in the US is such an important matter, then I don't give a fuck what methods are used to protect from that, whether George Washington would have nodded his approval, or if its written in an ancient document
Voting doesn't enact change. The fact that you read that comment and wondered "who are you voting for?" shows how unserious you are. They won't vote, they have no interest in voting. You are responding to a communist yet you still think they are bound by this idea that voting matters?
Also you are LITERALLY giving conditions for what is happening in Palestine. You a giving a conditional exception by saying you will still support Biden doing it if it stops Trump. You have a number of dead Arabs you find acceptable
Voting for the lesser evil is how democracy got here, to this point, where you think you're voting for a president who supports one genocide instead of two. And even if that were true, you're implying that's somehow a moral action.
There is quite literally only one way to try effect a halt to the inevitable but popularly unwanted support of genocides, and that's to demand an alternative to the two-party dictatorship. By vote, protest and any other means possible.
If you want a practical reason not to vote for Joe Biden, it is that the only way to pull them left is to withhold your vote. See what your unconditional support has gotten you.
I'm not participating in this farce. I do other more productive things with my time.
You also speak as though there aren't already crimes against humanity that the government is currently committing. The justice system, education, prisons, healthcare, border etc are all cruel implementations of capitalism that target the poor and minorities. Claiming that Trump would target more people here is such a dumb argument. Yeah, we get it, those guys are shit and because of that I spend my time trying to help people who are in danger. Voting for Biden won't help that. Biden being in office has made the US more dangerous for my trans friends.
I do not deny the fact that the US is a cesspool of discrimination, hate, unfairness and inequality. I have never said that and would never. And I also am aware that a secret police stealing people on the middle of the night is not different from forcing people to attend anti-gay camp programs and that denying gender affirming care to trans people is inherently evil.
About orange man: I mean it's not an argument that he would target more people. It's a statement of fact. He has said so publicly using Nazi terminology.
What would make it safe for your gay, bi, trans friends, mine, my cousins and daughter or even myself? Give me something actionable and productive. That's the real struggle here. I think a lot of people are looking for something that can actually be done. Like real ways to change the country we live in.
I feel like all we have are bad choices. I know nothing about you as a person but I can say for myself, that life got a whole lot more complicated when I personally became responsible for children. Not only having to worry about the world they would grow up in but also the risks I can take to my own life to secure that future.
And if you where Palestinian and your children where being bombed right now, would you really have a shred of fucking pity for some guy in the US saying that they have no choice but to support the guy murdering your kids right now? They don't get a difference, they don't get a fucking mitigation of suffering. They just suffer, and you have an allowance of that suffering you can accept, or at least find more acceptable than not voting.
Remember that people voted for MPs who they knew wouldn't take office all the while being brutalized and killed by British secret police and death squads in the occupied six counties. Those folks had the dignity and strength to refuse to vote for politicians who would lessen the death squads or at least said they would. They chose to very publicly throw their votes away so someone else could publicly throw their seat away in protest.
Withhold your consent, that is actionable. That does at the very least NOT contribute to making people unsafe. Otherwise you will continue to excuse and accept piles of corpses while telling yourself that the other guy would make a bigger pile. You can just not shovel more bodies on the pile for any of them. It won't change things, but it will be more meaningful than investing emotional energy in voting and thinking you have the ability to change things at the ballot.
Until you throw away this need to vote, you cannot move forward politically
Dude, this is a really strange thought process, and I think you might want to interrogate it a little more.
I'm also a thirty something father of multiple children, and sure it's a big responsibility. I also understand your points about risk mitigation. I often joke myself that I used to be a communist but since having kids I'm a liberal, because I find I have far less time for meaningful praxis, and I keep my head lower.
However, it comes off like you're presenting yourself with some binary of I must choose to tacitly support a genocide against brown people because I have kids and gay friends.
That's such a strange calculus. You're imaging a scenario where your life here in the empire are as bad as the life we're imposing on the third world, and you're justifying that world order through this imagined scenario.
Note that I don't care who you or anyone else votes for. I'm only speaking about this rationale.
If you're not doing this, and just looking for more meaningful actions to take, I apologize, and there are hopefully resources people here could point you to.
There are many things you can do. Recognize your risk tolerance and act accordingly.
Volunteer for the Trevor project. Find your local food not bombs. Those are low risk options that cost nothing but time. There are obviously higher risk options. I think the thing you can do is get involved with your community. That's just my opinion. My view of American politics is fairly grim and my view implies that making friends and helping others is a necessary action to survive the coming shit show. Voting isn't going to help any of that.
Watch, laugh. I am not an American and if I were, I'd... probably do something to impress Jodie Foster.
basically ur gonna get a picture of a beautiful hog with shit firmly resting on its massive ballsack
Local representatives, if they’re not shit
No. Which is why I won’t be voting for a president.
No, what are YOU planning to do? You seem to want me to vote for Biden. Okay. What are liberals going to do to stop Trump? They haven’t imprisoned him. They won’t ban the GOP. They won’t arrest Abbott or DeSantis or any of the satanic southern politicians defying federal orders. Your party is ran by a bunch of bitches and cowards. And they will compromise with the republicans and give them everything. They’re setting the stage to give Republicans all the legal tools of fascism for free if Biden loses. You’re all a bunch of midwestern von Hindenburgs as far as I’m concerned.
You don’t get to ask me what my plan is when your useless party refuses to do anything. These questions should be directed at liberals with fucking paid government positions, not random voters who won’t affect an election. Even if I did believe in “harm reduction” and want a democrat in office, I can’t even choose anyone because everyone refuses to wield power and oppress the tyrants you cry about so much, and you and your fellow useless voters refuse to pressure your representatives.
Ask yourself this. WHY ARE LIBERAL VOTERS THE ONLY ONES WHO FREAK OUT ABOUT TRUMP? Why is no other liberal politician calling Trump a Nazi? Why is no liberal politician demanding that he and his ilk be fucking banished from American society? Why is no liberal politician challenging the constitution to ban neo Nazis? Do you see the disconnect? I’m sure you’re serious and worried about Trump. But do you not see how your representatives have betrayed you? If democracy can fall every 4 years, if genocide can happen because the presidency switches hands, then what kind of society do we live in? Why are we even allowing the party that could commit genocide at home the ability to compete for ruling us? Do you not see how absurd your premise of democracy is? If liberals were serious about democrats saving democracy from the republicans, then this country would be a one party state.
Imagine if modern Germany apologized for the holocaust and felt great National and cultural shame, but they still allow the Nazi Party to compete in elections every time. That is what you sound like when you cry about Trump winning elections. If you were serious, Biden wouldn’t lose because there would be no competition.
you run into legal trouble if you try to use real solutions. If it comes down to it, a bit of
is not out of the question. havent been pushed that far yet personally
I am not wasting the 5 joules of energy expended to bubble in the US presidential candidate because I, like the majority of people in this country, don't live in a swing state. Have fun voting for Biden in Alabama or New York as if that means anything lmao. Why do you think voter turnout never hovers over 67%? It's because most people realize that the presidential elections are completely pointless and a waste of time, on par with sham elections where you can only vote for a single candidate. Anyone who paid attention in high school civics class would come to the same exact conclusion. Forget defending the actions of some genocidal white supremacist. How about you give a compelling argument why someone from California or Wyoming should bother voting for who gets to be president in the first place instead of just writing a joke candidate like Darth Vader?