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Human rights investigators raise new questions on Gaza hospital explosion
(www.channel4.com)
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this post was submitted on 20 Oct 2023
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Doesn't matter who did it. The issue is the systemic oppression of a population, apartheid leads to violence. Blame is immaterial here. Both belligerents are bad actors, having done terrible things to each other, and the civilians.
The only resolution is how to end the apartheid. Truth and reconciliation, integration of the populations, total freedom and liberation of a country, take your pick.
This one attack is being skillfully used to redirect our attention from the real issue, that is, everything you said.
If your "only resolution" is completely unattainable, that's not very helpful.
Ending apartheid is attainable. It's worked in many different countries. It's not an easy process by any means. Nobody's going to have peace, as long as apartheid continues.
Granting Independence to Palestine has been on the table for 60 years. Very attainable, the will currently doesn't exist but it's attainable.
The current plan of just ratcheting up the pressure doesn't seem to be working...
People thought it matters who did it when they were still thinking it was Israel.
The issue is the war and violence, lets not bicker and argue about who killed who... the continuation is the problem. If we were at peace and trying to find justice about war crimes, the blame and facts matter, but we are talking about a ongoing 60 year war, that has just come to a boil.
There isn't any diplomatic effort to find a solution on the table, just more violence and escalation......
You're building a straw man here. Why do you think those were the exact same people? I think you're creating an imaginary enemy here
There were lots of posts and comments how Israel killed 500 civilians. A lot of people seemed to care who did it.
With that background, it's worthwhile to post additional information if the previous was misleading. Doesn't matter if it's the same people (not exactly sure to who you're referring), neither did I create an enemy.
Apparently there was demand for the information who did it, so it's good to post updates, even if other people think it doesn't matter.
Yes, some people thought it mattered. Yes, some people are hypocrites. But saying "people" just paints everyone with the same brush. Some people said from the very beginning that the entire situation has to stop. Hell, Israel has bombed hospitals countless times in the past, so it's not like it even matters that much anyway. I just got annoyed with your "people thought it mattered" as if everyone has the exact same opinion as of the people you have encountered.
Oh, alright. Seems you would have been fine if I had written "Some people" instead of just "People". As a non-native speaker, I'm not sure wether "People" actually means some or all people.
Like when I say "People like the new iPhone", are you sure that means all people like it? Or can that sentence be said when a large number likes it, although some don't, and the overall majority didn't even consider to buy it?
Either way, I could have clarified with a short emphasis, yes.
Yeah I'm not a native speaker either. Any other way I'm glad that was clarified.
Of course, that's the reasonable objective.
How do you integrate a population that wants to kill you though?
If you try to kill them right back, that just proves their point.
Need to find a stable situation for the area. Either bite the bullet and make a independent state of them, or integrate them into the one country. Two separate populations in the same area will just beget more violence.
Hamas can only be defeated by the people seeing that they have better options, its a difficult path, but it has to be done.
So you just let them kill you without response. And you think Hamas and the other fundamentalist Islamic terrorists will stop killing Jews once they have their own state, which they rejected when they were offered it.
You carry out a proportional response. When there's a huge power asymmetry you have to consider that in your responses.
There will never be peace with Hamas, or any religious fundamentalist. The entire exercise is to get the population to have a better option so they don't back the extremists. Both populations
I agree completely, the power asymmetry is a fundamental issue that has to be considered as part of any response. Several instances where that's been an issue easily come to mind: Nazis industrially killing Jews, gypsies and others; Argentina's military torturing and raping civilians, and now Israel flattening a city.
But Palestinians getting to where we'd all like them to be, with their own state, with open borders, welcome anywhere they go... Unfortunately we're way past the point where that's an option. There's a reason not even their Islamic neighbors want them.
Also, they had a better option. Many Palestinians lived in peace, they even worked in Israel. Their extremists don't care though, that's not what they're after. They just want to kill Jews.
I think you will find it a hard sell to tell any population they haven't earned their freedom (yet) and expect them to accept it and be peaceful.
The cycle is just repeating, the frustrating thing is those with the ability to break the cycle have no incentive to do so.
So what do you suggest? Let's assume the Israeli government stops the retaliation right now (as they should). What's next? Who do they talk to? The rest of the Arab world doesn't want to have anything to do with the Palestinians, except, of course, those who want to use them as pawns to attack the Jews by proxy.
Israel and the west have tried to solve this situation since the creation of the state. It's been sabotaged every time. If course the Israeli right has done some horrible things as well. But that's not the reason they're being attacked. Even if they didn't do any of those things, the Islamic terrorists would still be killing them at every opportunity.
I don't know what the solution is. But let's not be naive.
Have you thought that Hamas is in power because of Israelis policies. If they weren't so oppressed or lived in such terrible conditions, they would have maybe never voted for Hamas.
Same with the Nazi party, they only get into power after the Versailles treaty.
And why do you think they lived in those conditions?
A piece of advice, open Wikipedia and educate yourself and stop listening to your country's propaganda.
I haven't listened to my country's propaganda, even though I know the general attitude here is mostly in favor of Palestine. I know the history of this conflict from my own family history
This question is disingenuous. It's just like an abusive boyfriend saying "why do you keep making me hit you?"
Sure, but terrorism and war is not like domestic violence. That analogy is disingenuous.
Fair enough let's agree to disagree. The current situation is just a pressure cooker I think we both agree on that.
Yep.
I've posted elsewhere, but you just have to look at the anti-apartheid roadmaps other countries have followed. There's a choice here, either an independent Palestine, or an integrated Israel. Maybe change the country name. Those are the only viable options. You have to choose one, and then make all of the hard road choices along that path.
You can't point to the history and say it didn't work, people, especially indigenous people, are very reluctant to say yes everything up to now has been okay please give us some freedom today. They just don't do that that's not human nature. An individual might do that to get the torture to stop, but you're never going to get a political leader to agree to it and even if you do, there's still going to be discontent among the population.
So the summarie: Economic integration, political integration, no second class citizens, everyone has to see a brighter future, you've got to give opportunities to the young male population which is the recruitment bed for extremists.
Independence or integration, both roadmaps need to hit the same points. You can't have a massively resource-starved population looking at a massively resource Rich population and expect content and peace.
Do you're realize the Palestinians were given that option and they rejected it?
Everything you described sounds great, it's the reasonable and kind way to think, but I keep asking the same question: how do you do that with a population whose most extreme members, which are a significant proportion, have one mission in life, and that is to kill every single one of you, not just because of your oppression (that's a contributing factor of course) but because of your religion?
Also, in this case, you'd need to overcome the religious extremists not just in the population you want to integrate, but in other countries who are using that population to attack you by proxy.
Tell me, how do you solve this?
You can't blame an entire ethnicity for the actions of a few. Even a large few.
Unless you're willing to exterminate the entire population, you're going to have to deal with them.
That means making overtures, and peace, with the majority of the population, providing them a better future together than one apart.
And that means treating terrorism, as terrorism rather than a war against a an entire ethnicity.
And it's not easy, and they've both ratcheted themselves into a terrible position. So it's going to take a lot of soul searching on both sides.
So yeah, ratcheting down the Gaza situation is going to be difficult, especially because Hamas is very popular there for all these reasons. So initially the piece overtures are going to help Hamas, but we have to have faith that net net the population is going to see a better future. Most people don't want to fight, if they have better options. Throughout all of history. So that means those young men with no future and no prospects and no jobs, they need to get something to do.
Maybe this plan involves unifying the West Bank in Gaza, so that the West Bank political system can provide stability to Gaza. We got to try something other than the current kill and oppress. Because kill an oppress doesn't work as we've seen. Unless you're going to kill them all. And then we have another name for that
I'm sorry, I realize I'm going in circles, repeating myself comment after comment.
My parents fled the Holocaust and even though I don't consider myself Jewish, by ethnicity and by family history I am. I think nobody deserves to be killed no matter what.
I hope there's a solution and that I'm wrong. I hope my opinion is not based on experience but on the fact that I'm old and jaded.
I'm not blaming an ethnicity, I don't care what ethnicity anyone is. I'm blaming religious extremism.
I commend you for your optimism, I wish everyone thought like you. The world would be a better place.
But in this case, all of that has been tried, and it failed. It should absolutely continue to be tried, and I want to be clear that I don't support what Israel is doing right now, but let's not kid ourselves. There's no solution, there will never be one.