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[–] jet@hackertalks.com 1 points 2 hours ago* (last edited 2 hours ago)

At 1:05 she goes through the signs your in a active oxalate dump cycle, which can come years after going zero carb (she cites a patient going through the first dump at 3years)

  • Urine - irritation/burning/Cloudy
  • Getting up at night to pee (crystals are irritating the bladder)
  • Colon - irritation/burning/constipation/diarrhea
  • Skin - rashes/boils/"snowing"
  • Eye crud
  • Tartar in the teeth
  • Wake up exhausted not sleeping well.
  • general fatigue

Maybe this matches the Cywes/Saladino carnivore dip scenarios

 

Sally K Norton is a Cornell University-educated nutritionist, dietary consultant, and lifestyle coach. She works with people struggling with unexplained joint pain, muscle pain, inflammation, fatigue, and brain function problems. She has unique expertise in the link between dietary oxalates and mysterious health problems and has been at the forefront of educating patients and clinicians on the dangers of oxalates, which she explains in her new book "Toxic Superfoods."

summerizerPATH INTO OXALATES

  • Sally Norton was trained to limit animal fats, butter, and salt while elevating vegetables, and that training damaged her health.
  • Chronic health problems, fatigue, and vulvar pain became the entry point into oxalates and low-oxalate eating.
  • The Vulvar Pain Foundation had used low-oxalate diet work for pelvic pain long before it reached her school training.
  • Oxalate first entered the curriculum as a kidney-stone issue, then the same chemistry came to matter far beyond kidneys.
  • Sweet potatoes, Swiss chard, nuts, potatoes, peanuts, chocolate, spinach, and similar foods can create a bioaccumulation problem.

OXALATE INTAKE, STORAGE, AND RELEASE

  • Oxalate enters from foods as oxalic acid and plant-made calcium oxalate crystals, while the liver also makes some from vitamin C and amino acid breakdown.
  • Oxalic acid enters through the stomach and upper intestine, flows into the liver, then moves through the heart, lungs, circulation, and kidneys.
  • Oxalic acid chelates calcium, magnesium, iron, and other minerals, so blood and cellular electrolyte handling can become unstable after meals.
  • Calcium signaling runs cellular communication, heart pacing, nerve function, mitochondria, and endoplasmic-reticulum signaling, so oxalate disrupts basic physiology.
  • The body stores oxalate in thyroid glands, bone marrow, tendons, injured tissue, inflamed tissue, degenerating cells, and areas of wear and tear.
  • Healthy cells can resist oxalate better, while damaged or regenerating tissue becomes sticky to calcium oxalate and attracts more inflammation.
  • Low-oxalate eating can initially feel worse because stored oxalate moves back through blood, kidneys, urine, and tissues during clearing.
  • Adding oxalate back can temporarily calm symptoms because it can signal the body to slow the clearing process.
  • Heavy clearing can cause cloudy urine, kidney stress, kidney stones, electrolyte disturbance, blood-pressure spikes, atrial fibrillation, fatigue, brain fog, cramps, mood disruption, and sleep disruption.

CELLULAR DAMAGE AND CANCER MECHANISMS

  • Oxalate can scramble cell membranes, flip inner-leaflet molecules outward, and make immune cells remove cells as damaged material.
  • Mitochondria are double-membrane structures, so oxalate-driven membrane damage can flatten cristae, increase free radicals, and weaken energy production.
  • Damaged cells leak potassium and other danger signals, activate inflammasomes, raise lactate dehydrogenase, raise osteopontin, and deepen oxidative stress.
  • Chronic exposure through spinach, potatoes, chocolate, nuts, sweet potatoes, and Swiss chard keeps these stress signals active multiple times per day.
  • Breast-cancer work connects oxalate ions and crystals with aggressive tumor behavior, microcalcifications, mesenchymal transition, and hydroxyapatite deposits.
  • Warburg-style cancer metabolism fits the concern: damaged mitochondria drive fermentation, glucose and glutamine demand, free radicals, mutations, and further mitochondrial injury.
  • Older enzyme work connects oxalate with interference in energy metabolism, but modern funding has not carried that line forward enough.

NUTRITION EDUCATION, INCENTIVES, AND IDEOLOGY

  • The medical and scientific system shifted toward product development, revenue, corporate medicine, and guideline obedience.
  • Prevention through avoiding excess oxalate has little commercial upside compared with drugs, procedures, and products.
  • Nutrition inherited vegetarian ideology, especially in places tied to Seventh-day Adventism and plant-based academic culture.
  • Loma Linda, Harvard, Cornell, Colin Campbell, Walter Willett, and related institutions sit inside that plant-forward academic history.
  • Ivy League nutrition training left Sally Norton with pre-digested conclusions: fat caused disease, saturated fat was harmful, and sugar was benign except for cavities.
  • Industry money, sugar funding, pharmaceutical ties, and guideline committees shape what doctors learn and what patients are offered.
  • Good nutrition training needs original literature, cell biology, biochemistry, research methods, old papers, and independent thinking.

PLANT TOXINS AND MODERN HEALTH FOODS

  • Toxic Superfoods focuses mainly on oxalates, while the wider plant-toxin topic includes saponins, tannins, and other gut-damaging compounds.
  • Modern healthy-eating styles can increase plant toxins through spinach, almonds, chia, nuts, dark chocolate, sweet potatoes, Swiss chard, and high-oxalate keto or vegan foods.
  • Seed oils and sugar can worsen oxalate trouble, especially when combined with spinach salads, sweet dressings, raisins, and dessert patterns.
  • Tannins harden proteins, saponins dissolve membranes, and many plant compounds act first on the gut.
  • Phytonutrients are better understood as phytotoxins when the body is trying to avoid or neutralize them.

LOW-OXALATE TRANSITION AND SUPPORT

  • Abruptly jumping from high-oxalate vegan or keto eating into carnivore can be a major metabolic shock.
  • Cells can shift within days when oxalate intake drops, so gradual reduction is safer than mobilizing thyroid, bone-marrow, tendon, and tissue stores all at once.
  • Reduction can start with spinach, then nuts, then other high-oxalate staples, while keeping the process slow enough for the body and psyche.
  • Electrolytes matter because oxalate clearing can waste sodium and potassium and disrupt calcium and magnesium handling.
  • Calcium citrate, potassium citrate, salt, B vitamins, sunshine, mineral baths, and small oxalate doses such as tea can help slow excessive clearing.
  • Meat-based eating supplies a strong base for healing, and full carnivore can be a useful stage during oxalate recovery.

CARBS, CARNIVORE, AND METABOLIC FLEXIBILITY

  • Former vegetarians or high-oxalate keto eaters may carry a longer oxalate history into carnivore than lifelong meat-heavy eaters.
  • Oxalate poisoning can disrupt gluconeogenesis, glycogen, blood sugar, sleep, cramps, and electrolyte stability, making some people need carbohydrates.
  • Paul Saladino’s carnivore problems fit this pattern more than Shawn Baker’s history because prior plant-heavy eating changes the background load.
  • A mostly carnivore diet can still include carefully chosen carbs when sleep, cramps, and function improve with them.
  • Carbs are best kept deliberate, often with dinner, without returning to processed foods, high-oxalate staples, or loss of control around sugar.
  • Chronic ketosis is not automatically the correct endpoint for every body; metabolic flexibility and movement in and out of ketosis can be healthier.
  • Insulin spikes are not inherently bad, and eating meat or small carb amounts can help cells pull potassium back into muscles and nerves.

References

[–] jet@hackertalks.com 1 points 3 hours ago

Plant-food rich diet may not cut dementia risk, even when started later in life, study finds

May also means may not....

https://doi.org/10.1212/WNL.0000000000214916

AbstractThis prospective longitudinal analysis of the Multiethnic Cohort Study, based in Hawaii and California (primarily Los Angeles County), included data on African American, Japanese American, Latino, Native Hawaiian, and White participants who completed food frequency questionnaires at baseline (1993–1996; age 45–75 years) and at 10-year follow-up (2003–2008) and whose Medicare claims were linked to identify incident ADRDs. A priori indices for the overall plant-based diet index (PDI), the healthful plant-based diet index (hPDI), and the unhealthful plant-based diet index (uPDI) were analyzed in Cox regression models for ADRD.

The analysis included 92,849 participants (mean age 59.2 years, 55.1% female, 21,478 with ADRDs) for the baseline diet and 45,065 participants (8,360 with ADRDs) for the 10-year dietary change. For the baseline diet, comparing the highest vs lowest quintile, PDI and hPDI were associated with 12% (hazard ratio [HR] 0.88; 95% CI 0.85–0.92) and 7% (HR 0.93; 95% CI 0.89–0.97) lower risks of ADRD, respectively, whereas uPDI was related to a 6% higher risk (HR 1.06; 95% CI 1.01–1.10). For the dietary change over time, the strongest association with ADRD was observed for uPDI rather than for PDI or hPDI. Compared with those with a stable score (<0.5 SD change), participants with a large increase in uPDI (≥1 SD) showed a 25% higher risk (HR 1.25; 95% CI 1.15–1.36) and those with a large decrease in uPDI showed an 11% lower risk (HR 0.89; 95% CI 0.84–0.94). The associations between the plant-based diet indices and ADRD were generally similar by age group (<60 vs ≥60 years at baseline), race and ethnicity, or APOE ℇ4 carrier status.

Observational epidemiology with clinically insignificant hazard ratios of 1.25 is useful to generate a hypothesis, but nothing else. So yeah, "maybe", they don't know.

[–] jet@hackertalks.com 1 points 3 hours ago

Not to mention it's a bit of fantasy to think you can just magic pastoral land into arable land, we don't gain more cropland by giving up on animals.

[–] jet@hackertalks.com 1 points 3 hours ago

NAFLD is a symptom of impaired metabolism. The single most effective way to reverse NAFLD is to fix your metabolism, and the fastest way to do that is to eat a ketogenic diet. No carbohydrates, at all.

Going vegan necessities a high amount of carbohydrates, which makes the rapid resolution of your liver fat more challenging.

You can't burn fat when insulin is elevated, and insulin is elevated for hours every time you eat any carbohydrates. You want to enable your body to mobilize the fat in the liver. So you want to maximum amount of time without carbohydrates. Ketogenic eating makes this easy, and you should see measurable results in a few weeks/months.

[–] jet@hackertalks.com 1 points 4 hours ago

Ketogenic women does a far more detailed tutorial as well https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rj0q-UNi4dU

 

These little morsels of goodness are made with just butter and a pinch of salt.

They’re a simple, satisfying treat that’s perfect for a carnivore diet or keto lifestyle.

I love to mix it up by adding a bit of crispy bacon or ground beef thats also crisped up for an extra boost of flavour.

These bites are a must-have for curbing cravings and keeping you on track with your goals.

[–] jet@hackertalks.com 2 points 5 hours ago

Some people can tolerate cheese, some can't... when someone hits a progress wall, it might be the cheese, a brie too far.

[–] jet@hackertalks.com 0 points 5 hours ago

Some nice quotes in this interview, especially how she frames everything in terms of deficiency (too little) or toxicity (too much)

 

Teri shares her journey on the carnivore diet.

summerizerFood history and body shift

  • Terry had lifelong food struggles, but the pattern was the reverse of most people: weight gain was difficult.
  • During military service, at 5'9", weight stayed around 105 to 112 pounds despite supplements, training, and help from every branch.
  • A military doctor required a 30-day food log; the average came out around 7,000 calories daily, with one day near 11,000.
  • Around age 35, weight rose to about 160 pounds, but that weight felt wrong on a small build.
  • Back pain, joint pain, acne, and a 2 a.m. lumbar spasm made "normal degeneration" sound absurd.

Plant study and herbal training

  • A horse-science degree led into a master's in clinical herbal medicine after COVID shut down job options.
  • That education made plants look different: phytonutrients get attention, while phytochemicals, phytotoxins, and phyto-medicines get ignored.
  • Spinach captures the problem: heavy-metal load, low usable iron, high oxalates, and little of the nutrition people think they are getting.
  • Plants can be useful as medicine, but that does not make them appropriate food.
  • The PhD work in integrative health centers on toxicity and deficiency as the roots of disease.

Signs, deficiencies, and elimination

  • Hair, skin, nails, body shape, eczema, psoriasis, gray hair, rough skin, and other surface signs can reveal nutritional and metabolic problems.
  • Repeated research exposure kept bringing attention back to elimination diets.
  • A true elimination diet removes plant matter, and that points toward carnivore as the cleanest human-health experiment.
  • This diet is not a fad; food elimination has medical roots going back to ancient records around 400 BCE.
  • Three days on carnivore cleared acne and psoriasis, and 60 days resolved the autoimmune issues in the household.

Reintroduction and daily food

  • Reintroductions make the plant problem obvious: grains bring back back pain, gluten brings ear psoriasis, seed oils bring acne, starch tightens the neck, and sugar makes the kidneys hurt.
  • A client lost about 100 pounds and many health issues on carnivore, then a pint of ice cream and two Pop-Tarts hit hard enough to cause passing out and staples.
  • A normal day is simple: duck eggs and sausage late morning, meat for dinner, and reverse-osmosis water.
  • Carnivore made food uncomplicated, cut the grocery bill, removed cravings and hunger, and raised energy high enough for Navy Reserve reenlistment at 47.

Veterans, primacy, and pushback

  • Terry works with veterans for free because VA care leaves many of them suffering.
  • Veteran suicide is a crisis, and the number commonly repeated is 22 deaths per day.
  • The law of primacy explains much of the resistance: early nutrition lessons feel true even when new facts arrive.
  • People hear "stop eating plants" and assume salad, but the meaning is nearly everything in the grocery store.
  • Children are weaned from breast milk onto pulverized plant matter, snacks, crackers, cereal, and sugar.

Food rules flipped

  • The standard nutrition lesson turns 180 degrees: beef, butter, bacon, and eggs are health food.
  • Cholesterol has been demonized backward; high-cholesterol populations are the healthy ones, and the brain depends heavily on cholesterol.
  • Grains spike blood sugar, inflame the body, and can drive autoimmune and pain problems.
  • Package text works as a warning sign, and health language on cereal boxes is especially suspect.
  • Broccoli and grocery-store produce are man-made through selective breeding, not ancient human staples.

Industry and medicine

  • The cigarette industry moved into food, put addiction science to work, and helped build hyper-palatable products that hijack reward and blunt satiety.
  • Big Food creates addiction, Big Pharma sells injections and drugs, and doctors manage decline with pills.
  • Doctors are usually good people trained wrongly, not villains.
  • Doctors such as Chaffee, Kiltz, Ken Berry, Eric Berg, Mark Hyman, and Shawn Baker helped make this carnivore conversation visible.
  • Ken Berry's keto and carnivore story and Shawn Baker's ribeye-only routine show what long-term animal-food eating can look like.

Sugar, dairy, and exit

  • All plant foods contain or become sugar in the body, from coffee and broccoli to grains and refined sugar.
  • Human insulin is not suited to plant sugars, which is why plant foods raise insulin and feed insulin resistance.
  • Dairy is not automatically safe on carnivore because lactose, casomorphins, cheese addiction, and seed-oil-filled milk swaps create problems.
  • Seed oils are everywhere, especially in smooth or texturized products such as yogurt, granola, and ice cream.
  • In Terry's client experience, tapering off plants fails; cold turkey is the successful route.
  • The central lesson is simple: remove plants, eat animal foods, watch the body calm down.

References

[–] jet@hackertalks.com 3 points 10 hours ago* (last edited 10 hours ago) (1 children)

Plant based version

https://hcp.meadjohnson.com/products/enfamil-prosobee

Ingredients: Powder: Corn syrup solids (54%), vegetable oil (26%) (palm olein, coconut, soy and high oleic sunflower oils), soy protein isolate (14%) and less than 2%: calcium phosphate, potassium chloride, sodium citrate, calcium carbonate, magnesium chloride, magnesium phosphate, potassium citrate, ferrous sulfate, zinc sulfate, cupric sulfate, potassium iodide, sodium selenite, Mortierella alpina oil*, Crypthecodinium cohnii oil†, L-methionine, choline chloride, ascorbic acid, niacinamide, calcium pantothenate, vitamin D3, riboflavin, thiamin hydrochloride, vitamin B6 hydrochloride, folic acid, vitamin K1, biotin, vitamin B12, inositol, taurine, vitamin E acetate, L-carnitine, vitamin A palmitate

Same DHA source... Corn syrup solids... Yum.

[–] jet@hackertalks.com 3 points 10 hours ago (2 children)

https://hcp.meadjohnson.com/products/enfamil-infant

Ingredients: Powder: Nonfat milk, lactose, vegetable oil (palm olein, coconut, soy and high oleic sunflower oils), whey protein concentrate and less than 2%: galactooligosaccharides*, polydextrose*, Mortierella alpina oil†, Crypthecodinium cohnii oil‡, calcium carbonate, potassium citrate, ferrous sulfate, potassium chloride, magnesium oxide, sodium chloride, zinc sulfate, cupric sulfate, manganese sulfate, potassium iodide, sodium selenite, soy lecithin, choline chloride, ascorbic acid, niacinamide, calcium pantothenate, vitamin A palmitate, vitamin B12, vitamin D3, riboflavin, thiamin hydrochloride, vitamin B6 hydrochloride, folic acid, vitamin K1, biotin, inositol, vitamin E acetate, nucleotides (cytidine 5’-monophosphate, disodium uridine 5’-monophosphate, adenosine 5’-monophosphate, disodium guanosine 5’-monophosphate), taurine, L-carnitine.

Seed oil! Yum, soy

They claim it includes dha from Crypthecodinium cohnii oil, microalgal/single-cell source. So that's not animal based.

[–] jet@hackertalks.com 2 points 12 hours ago (1 children)

this got published, in a peer reviewed journal "Journal of Health, Population and Nutrition"... which means people with serious PhDs read it...

how can that even happen?

its beyond just myths and obstructive misunderstandings it is actively malicious

[–] jet@hackertalks.com 2 points 12 hours ago* (last edited 12 hours ago) (3 children)

However, no significant improvement in HbA1c levels was observed, and an increase in total cholesterol and LDL-C was noted [41].

Here is what Wang et al actually said

Reductions were observed in the triglyceride (mean differences: −0.20 mmol/L; 95% CI: −0.29, −0.11; I2: 72.2%), blood glucose (mean differences: −0.18 mmol/L; 95% CI: −0.33, −0.02; I2: 76.4%), blood insulin (mean differences: −8.32 pmol/L; 95% CI: −14.52, −2.12; I2: 81.5%), diastolic blood pressure (mean differences: −1.41 mmHg; 95% CI: −2.57, −0.26; I2: 49.1%), weight (mean differences: −2.59 kg; 95% CI: −3.90, −1.28; I2: 87.4%), and body mass index (mean differences: −1.59 kg/m2; 95% CI: −2.32, −0.86; I2: 84.5%) concentrations after implementing ketogenic diets.

but they focus on hba1c because they can neg it? only 7 of the studies in the meta-analysis covered hba1c, so it was underpowered, AND it doesn't account for these studies didn't focus on metabolically unwell people... so maybe their hba1c didn't need to improve....

Plus Wang isn't the newest meta-analysis on keto, but Pi et al in 2025 shows a improvement in hba1c, so I guess they stuck with the older reference... for some reason.

Further clinical studies have also shown significant increases in LDL-C and ApoB levels in the context of a ketogenic diet

Back to evidence based, is that a BAD thing? Different metabolic contexts are important. The doctors they are following here could have provided them data to add to this commentary.

The traditional Inuit diet is often cited in this context, as it consisted largely of raw animal foods and was associated with generally good health outcomes, partly due to its fatty acid profile and micronutrient content [47,48,49]. However, these findings are only of limited relevance to modern populations, particularly given differences in lifestyle, food availability, and physical activity.

Kinda missing the forest for the trees, yes, there are modern problems, and people are tying to get back to a known good state by changing modern diets and lifestyle!

Available studies lack clinical endpoints, and prospective longitudinal data are missing.

Wishing for observational epidemiology just shows how poor science literacy is, even in paper authors. Epidemiology is hypothesis generating and cannot inform on cause and effect.

Given its nutrient profile, potential deficiencies may increase long-term health risks. This need for caution is supported by a long-term follow-up study reporting a potential U-shaped association between carbohydrate intake and mortality

Which deficiencies, i thought we were being evidence based? Their reference is erroneously implying there is such a thing as an essential carbohydrate, based on... wait for it, epidemiology with absurdly small absolute risk (hazard ratio 1.2 - no absolute risk provided!!!!!!) . Surely if carbohydrates are essential we would have more data on it?

Overall, it should be noted that there is an assumed link between meat consumption and an increased risk of developing diabetes, cancer, obesity, hypertension, inflammation and atherosclerosis. However, it is difficult to transfer this to CD`s due to a lack of data

Finally! A honest statement. Assumed link (not proven)... let's just examine of of their assumptions. Diabetes is a condition of carbohydrate intolerance, carnivore is zero-carb... mechanistically how does it make sense for a no carbohydrate diet to cause carbohydrate intolerance? the others I leave as exercises to you, the reader.

Phelan et al. demonstrated that the CD had the lowest score in a comparison of seven trending diets using Healthy Eating Index (HEI) scores. This was due to the elimination of plant-based foods and the high content of saturated fatty acids and sodium.

And scores here are demonstrated to lead to bad health outcomes based on evidence? Or was it a score made up using observational assumptions?

In addition to fibre, micronutrients such as potassium, calcium, and vitamin D were also classified as potentially deficient

potentially is such a weasel word, it also means potentially sufficient.

Goedeke et al. determined that thiamine, magnesium, calcium, vitamin C, iron, folate, iodine, and fibre are potentially critical in the carnivore diet. Including liver and iodised salt in hypothetical diet plans for women was necessary to ensure adequate iron and iodine intake

Determined? So opinion based on RDAs? and look at the weasel word again... potential, means they didn't base it on real human studies. Show me a case study of a carnivore with scurvy, please. Let's resolve this potential fraud!

O’Hearn’s hypothesis proposes different micronutrient requirements for a CD due to reduced carbohydrate metabolism, microbiome modulation, and increased meat intake

Oh my heart be still, they included a differing viewpoint finally. The first in this entire screed

In summary, despite the high bioavailability of animal-based foods, a CD appears to be associated with micronutrient deficiencies, contradicting content creators’ claims that such a diet predominantly meets nutritional requirements. Additionally, the advantages of the CD as an elimination diet do not outweigh the risk of nutritional deficiencies. Less risky elimination diets (e.g. the low-FODMAP diet) should therefore be preferred.

AND YET, DESPITE THE DIFFERING VIEWPOINT THEY JUST INCLUDED... "associated with deficiencies" as demonstrated in what population? They only provided opinion pieces speculating on RDAs, not examining patients for clinical outcomes. What risk? What is the magnitude of the risk? How long before the risk realizes? i.e. If I skip one meal am I at risk for these deficiencies? Is it a week, a month, a year? How would these manifest? They should use SPECULATED deficiencies, because they have not been demonstrated in this population... remember their earlier statement that there were not many studies here? Suddenly they can speak with authority on the effects of this diet?

Muller et al. conducted a social media analysis examining the posting behaviour of two carnivore content creators from 2020 to 2023 in terms of their rhetoric. The analysis revealed a proliferation of conspiracy theories and right-wing ideologies in the content creators’ content. They viewed and ideologised meat consumption as a means of achieving “ultimate white masculinity.”

Oh we have moved from dietary slander, to political assassination, good good....

note the potential for less ideologically driven content creators to provide a shallow entry point into the community, and through their networks, these content creators could facilitate a path into more radical, racist-oriented scenes

Carnivore is a slippy slope into racism...

Monteiro et al., described carnism as an ideology and found a connection between meat consumption and carnistic beliefs. These beliefs justify the killing of animals for food and counteract cognitive dissonance

WTF is this, their study said most of the content was about health, which means OUTCOME BASED... and now suddenly its a cult?

Cognitive dissonance can be triggered by the “meat paradox,” which expresses a dilemma between meat consumption and empathy for animals

It's not a paradox, if you want to live something has to die. Plant, animal, fungus... you consume substrates from other living things. It's part of the being alive subscription service.

Monteiro et al. examined, carnistic defence, which legitimises the consumption of animals and trivialises their suffering. They also analysed carnistic dominance, which justifies killing animals for food based on hierarchical superiority, also known as speciesism. Both concepts are linked to socio-political attitudes, such as right-wing authoritarianism and social dominance orientation. Carnist dominance has also been associated with symbolic racism and sexism

Farming, giving animals a high quality of life, and eating them - is the standard human condition... it's not some new evil phenomena but here they are inferring morality in a study of social media posts (17 users 2 weeks)

What a wild pivot this paper has been. So now not eating any carbohydrates is racist AND sexist.

The present analysis revealed tendencies toward conspiracy-related narratives, ideological elements, and politically relevant statements that may support the justification of the promoted dietary practices.

Well, let me put on my tin foil hat after reading this PEACH of a paper... crypto-adventists are disguising their biases as science and trying to bully people into giving up meat for reasons that are not based on clinically meaningful evidence.


I'm going to stop there it just keeps going on and on, the discussion section is 80% of this paper, the "research" is tiny and meaningless, and it's clearly just a soap box to get a academic publication to preach their biases at everyone.

Take away - If you eat meat your a racist and a sexist.... or these authors are full of shit. Take your pick.

[–] jet@hackertalks.com 2 points 12 hours ago (4 children)

This is a fun paper, clearly the authors have pre-determined that carnivore is non-evidence-based misinformation. I generally support their conclusion - All professional statements should be evidence based. The schism is what we consider sufficient evidence to provide advice. I'm personally not compelled by observational epidemiology with tiny hazard ratios and meaningless absolute risk.

Fernández et al. assessed misinformation on nutrition-specific topics in social media as a growing problem and identified audio-visual networks, such as Instagram, YouTube, and TikTok, as particularly associated with the spread of nutrition-related misinformation

The authors start off setting up carnivore as misinformation. Yet they don't support this.

Advocates of this approach promise far-reaching health benefits, which they attribute to the elimination of supposedly harmful plant-based foods.

Their framing language reinforces the author's personal bias.

these advantages contrast with prevailing recommendations that favour a balanced, plant-based diet for healthy individuals

Wait, I thought they wanted evidence based, yet they are using opinions as their counter factuals?

The CD lacks numerous plant compounds which are considered beneficial to health, such as bioactive substances and fibre [16,17,18,19,20]. Moreover, an elevated meat consumption is associated with the development of various diseases and reduced longevity [21].

Considered means opinion, associated is not causation. The metabolic context is a important consideration when saying something is beneficial.

Despite the growing popularity of CD`s on social media, knowledge in this young field of research is still limited.

A valid statement, which also means they can't classify things as misinformation because the research is limited (by their own admission).

Currently, there are hardly any significant clinical studies providing information on the short- and long-term effects of a CD.

Valid! The evidence base is small, including pro, and cons. Including classification of misinformation... in fact saying it's lacking something is a concern is also misinformation not informed by evidence by their own standards.

The following hashtags were used to focus the research account’s algorithm on carnivore topics: #plantfreemd, #carnivore,

Oh hey, they are looking at Anthony Chaffee.

detailed categories: Body, Movement, and Exercise (a1–a4), Food (b1–b4), Nutrition (c1–c4), Politics and society (d1–d5), Lifestyle (e1–e3), and Advertising (f1–f4). For example, the main category “Lifestyle” included the subcategories “mental and psychological strength”, “sports and physical activity”, and “health-related recommendations”.

The fact they are going through gymnastics to paint this as a political thing is funny. Yes Carnivore Doctors talk about health policies, but that isn't the same as typical political content, even though that is how they try to frame everything.

Microsoft Excel 365 was used for data maintenance and evaluation, employing descriptive statistics such as mean, median, standard deviation, and percentages

Ohh, didn't pass their python elective? Excel it is.

Ok, this is wild, their selection criteria was heavily curated, but then they try to draw demographic conclusions based on the people they selected with bias? what is this? Why are they even doing it? The limited themselves to 17 people.... not a random sample of their hashtags...

Food (45.7%); Politics and Society (31.6%); Advertising (25.1%); Lifestyle (22.8%); Nutrition (17.1%); Other (14.8%); Body, Movement, and Exercise (12.5%; Table 2).

Politics and society includes what exactly? If your trying to make health into a red vs blue political issue you should at least define what political content means.

Environmental issues (6.6%) and economic issues (4.1%) were found to be less relevant.

Ohh, politics includes being concerned for the environment. So even if every one of their tiny selection was a farmer... who only cares about soil health they would be painted as a political stooge in the abstract, fun.

climate change downplaying (30.2%), animal ethics (16.3%), and, in one case, raising awareness of food waste (4.7%).

A single post was 4.7% of their dataset! what the fuck is this. How do they define downplaying? Saying cows are good for the earth?

Based on quantitative data collection and qualitative content analysis, the following dietary recommendations were extracted from the sample in descending order of frequency:

    1. High-fat red meat should form the basis of a CD.
    1. Eggs and animal fats are important sources of nutrients after red meat.
    1. White and processed meats can be consumed. When it comes to processed meat, choose less processed varieties.
    1. Dairy products can be included in the diet. Dairy products with a high fat content and low carbohydrate content are preferred. Raw dairy products are recommended.
    1. Fish, seafood, shellfish, and organ meats can also be added to the diet.
    1. Do not consume highly processed foods.
    1. Do not consume plant-based and carbohydrate-rich foods.
    1. Do not consume seed oils.
    1. When choosing foods, prefer the following: pasture-raised animal products, organically produced foods, wild-caught fish, and products from grass-fed animals.
    1. Consume enough salt.
    1. Dietary supplements are usually unnecessary.
    1. A CD can be used as an elimination diet.

All of this seems fine, except maybe organ meats, and raw dairy

From a nutritional perspective, food choices in a CD tend to correspond to a high-risk dietary pattern due to the high consumption of animal-based foods and the avoidance of plant-based foods.

Evidence based! Where?

Consuming meat products is often linked with an elevated risk of diet-related illnesses and a higher number of disability-adjusted life years [28, 29].

Ohh, observational epidemiology with meaningless absolute risk... of course

Paradoxically, the main motivation for many carnivores is maintaining and achieving good health

A scientific person would ask if they are achieving the good health they desire rather then assuming they don't and calling it a paradox. EVIDENCE BASED, REMEMBER?

According to the collected data and the derived dietary recommendations, the CD is a high-fat, high-protein animal-based diet which excludes the consumption of plant-based and (highly) processed foods. The resulting pattern of macronutrients positions the CD as a low-carb-high-fat (LCHF) diet, which, depending on how it is practiced, can potentially induce ketosis.

If you are not in ketosis on a carnivore diet, it's not a carnivore diet.

There are no known recommendations regarding the proportion of energy that should be consumed from fat, protein or carbohydrates in a CD.

Have they done ANY research on LCHF before writing this paper? All their references are plant based observational epidemiology and opinions. There are many recommendations, the % of energy from protein doesn't change on carnivore, and they must know it... the rest is fat.. you replace the carbs with fat. Thats the key.

Due to the high protein intake, it can be assumed that the resulting increase in gluconeogenesis either counteracts ketogenesis or results in only low concentrations of ketone bodies in the blood.

Evidence based! Where is the evidence that carnivore is high protein? That is an assumption pulled out of their observational hole.

Therefore, a possible explanation for the reported positive effects of a CD, such as weight loss, improvement of autoimmune and diabetic diseases, and anti-inflammatory effects could be based on an LCHF or ketogenic approach

Could be, why are we speculating? This is a discussion of social media activity, yet here we are in the discussion going over all the authors straw men arguments based on ideas without evidence.

The CD’s high protein content could also be responsible for the weight loss, as people tend to eat less at subsequent meals after consuming a protein-rich meal, leading to lower energy intake

And fat, don't forget fat... since its a fat based diet. I mean really, they are calling out Anthony Chaffee in the paper, why didn't they talk to him to get some of their discussion questions worked out?

The carnivore lifestyle, which emphasises health-related topics such as sports, exercise, and mental health, coupled with limited food selection, could - additional to ketogenic-related metabolic mechanisms - contribute to a negative calorie balance, which is a key factor in weight loss.

Oh, mother fucker, this is rich.. Evidence based WHERE? They are ASSUMING THE CICO MODEL..... Which any of the 10% of the doctors they just studied could have told them isn't the right model, its about hormones.....

Thus, the health improvements could be partially due to the placebo effect.

Could be, why don't you do a study to get some evidence...

Taken together, these factors highlight the tension between perceived benefits and the potential health risks suggested by current evidence.

Bias again... the only evidence they have is observational, no case reports, no studies... they want evidence based recommendations but their own discussion can't limit to the established evidence. But lets say Observational is sufficient, then they HAVE A DUTY to mention the pro-meat observational studies (which are still trash), and they would have to change their conclusion to something like 'while evidence is divided, the perceived benefits of the diet should be confirmed by interventional trials'

 

Background - A carnivore diet is characterised by the exclusive consumption of animal foods, particularly red meat. Digital media, particularly TikTok and Instagram, often praise the health-promoting and disease-preventive properties of the carnivore diet. However, the scientific data on this form of nutrition is currently very limited.

Methods - After creating a coding guide with an accompanying seven-day pretest and modification, a social media analysis was conducted on the Instagram platform over a period of one month. In addition to content related to nutrition and food, aspects such as lifestyle, advertising measures, and political or social statements were also collected. The survey was conducted quantitatively through categorization, accompanied by qualitative documentation of notable findings.

Results - The analysis included 19 content creators (47% male, 53% female; aged 25–64) with an average of 157,758 ± 146,405 (25,200–582,000) followers. A total of 1,169 posts during the survey period showed a notable focus on health- and disease-related statements. With the exception of the strong emphasis on red meat, the nutritional and food recommendations were heterogeneous. This was accompanied by ideology-related themes, politically relevant statements, and critical portrayals of institutions such as science, politics, and industry, some of which could be classified as politically right-wing conservative. However, the data does not allow for a clear political classification. Overall, the carnivore diet was portrayed as positive.

Conclusions - The one-sided view of carnivore nutrition, combined with political and social content, should be viewed critically. Nutrition professionals should pay attention to social media and counteract non-evidence-based claims with scientifically sound information.

Full Paper - https://doi.org/10.1186/s41043-026-01336-4

 

T-bones for breakfast, ground round for lunch, rib eyes for dinner. Does this sound like your dream menu — or your worst nightmare? Is a diet consisting of only animal products a simple, healing way to eat or an overly restrictive regimen that borders on an eating disorder?

A carnivore diet contains animal products only. It is plant-free. In its most extreme form, it includes only meat and water.

Diet doctor is a great resource, hover over the number bubbles for their sources.

 

Dr. Eric Westman sits down with nutrition researcher Dr. Ty Beal to discuss what the science really says about nutrient density, animal foods, plant-based diets, dietary guidelines, and why so much mainstream nutrition advice has failed to improve public health. They explore why real food matters, why ultra-processed foods are a major problem, and why foods like eggs, fish, meat, organ meats, and dairy may be far more nutrient-dense than many people have been taught to believe. Dr. Beal also explains the limitations of observational nutrition research, the problems with weak associations, the debate around animal foods and planetary health, and why nutrition advice needs more nuance than simply saying “eat less fat” or “eat more plants.” This conversation challenges the old food pyramid thinking and asks whether modern dietary guidelines have ignored some of the most nutrient-rich foods humans can eat.

summerizerClinical origins and evidence standards

  • Low-carb care began with two patients losing more than 50 lb each through Atkins-style carbohydrate restriction before GLP-1 drugs were available.
  • Atkins had decades of clinic practice before strong published trials, and the gap between clinical results and academic acceptance remains important.
  • Clinical epidemiology starts with patients and outcomes, even when unpublished practice data brings little academic credit.
  • Early-2000s low-carb research moved the field from anecdote toward trials, reviews, and diabetes care.

Ty Beal’s route into nutrition

  • Diet changes improved health after travel-related illness, digestive problems, low energy, and undiagnosed lactose intolerance.
  • PhD work at UC Davis joined agriculture, geography, ecology, and global nutrition, with focus on undernutrition and food systems.
  • Global nutrition had more openness to animal-source foods and nutrient density than conventional low-fat nutrition.
  • Work on US dietary guidance, nutrient density, food processing, and global public health came from outside standard dietetics dogma.

Nutrition science and bias

  • Harvard-style nutritional epidemiology often yields plant-forward answers through observational models vulnerable to residual confounding.
  • PURE changed the dataset by going global, and modeling choices can shift nutrition conclusions even with identical data.
  • Small hazard ratios and odds ratios are weak foundations for clinical advice when they do not align with trials or common sense.
  • Observational results should generate hypotheses; randomized, controlled, or prospective testing should carry more weight.

Diet fit and food environment

  • Different dietary patterns can work because genetics, goals, preferences, adherence, and personal trigger foods differ.
  • Low fat can work for some people, lower carb can work for others, and long-term adherence matters more than short-term compliance.
  • The modern food environment exposes people to foods they cannot moderate, especially sugar, refined carbs, and ultra-processed products.
  • Sugary sodas have no nutritional value beyond water and create nutritional harm.

Nutrient adequacy and food quality

  • Micronutrient inadequacy is widespread in the US and globally, including iron, choline, magnesium, potassium, vitamin E, zinc, calcium, B12, and vitamin A.
  • Food quality has to include vitamins, minerals, protein quality, omega-3 form, calorie density, fiber, nutrient ratios, processing, and bioavailability.
  • Heme iron, preformed vitamin A, zinc, DHA, and EPA show why animal foods often supply nutrients in more usable forms than plant foods.
  • Plant foods still contribute vitamin C, potassium, vitamin E, magnesium, fiber, and many compounds outside essential nutrient lists.
  • Fiber is not required for life, but it can help or hurt depending on the person, gut tolerance, satiety, and microbial response.

Nutritional Value Score

  • The Nutritional Value Score combines priority vitamins, minerals, protein quantity and quality, omega-3s, calorie density, fiber, nutrient ratios, and ultra-processing.
  • Dark green leafy vegetables, organ meats, fish, seafood, non-starchy vegetables, unprocessed red meat, eggs, legumes, poultry, yogurt, nuts, and seeds score well.
  • Soft drinks, grain-based sweets, instant noodles, salty snack foods, refined grains, and other sweets cluster near the bottom.
  • Small dried fish, anchovies, sardines, fatty fish, shellfish, and organs are among the most nutrient-dense individual foods.
  • Eggs score solidly but not perfectly because the score measures quantified nutritional value, not whether a food can anchor a whole diet.

Context matters

  • Hot dogs and bologna can fit a low-carb emergency or travel context even though their score falls with processing and sodium-to-potassium concerns.
  • A low-carb or ketogenic filter could reasonably change scoring weights for sodium, saturated fat, fiber, and carbohydrate-related ratios.
  • Food scoring should allow dietary context, such as keto, vegan, vegetarian, or omnivorous patterns, because constraints change the practical question.
  • Restrictive diets can reduce overeating partly by limiting variety and removing highly rewarding trigger foods.

Carbohydrates and metabolic context

  • Many traditional populations ate substantial starch or carbohydrate without modern metabolic disease.
  • The human body can thrive with carbohydrates or without carbohydrates, depending on the person and context.
  • High carbohydrate intake is poorly matched to many clinic patients with severe obesity, insulin resistance, knee pain, and low activity.
  • DIETFITS-style work shows both high-fat/low-carb and low-fat/high-carb approaches can improve insulin resistance when food quality improves.

Animal-source foods and environment

  • The conventional environmental message that animal foods are simply worse for the planet is too simple.
  • Animal-source foods have nutritional strengths, environmental costs, and production trade-offs that depend on food type, location, ecosystem, and scale.
  • Livestock can harm land and emissions when produced poorly, but circular systems can use grass, crop residues, and inedible plant materials.
  • Legumes and diverse plant systems can supply nitrogen, but plant-only agriculture is not an automatic solution for soil, nutrients, or ecosystems.
  • Large ruminant populations existed historically on North American grasslands, but modern land ownership, markets, and production systems limit direct revival.
  • Better animal-food production requires best practices, incentives, ecological fit, and recognition that there is a limit.

Guidelines and common ground

  • The 2025–2030 US dietary guideline process included a scientific group with sections on vegetarian and vegan nutrient adequacy and life-stage nutrition.
  • The strongest common ground is real food, nutrient density, lower ultra-processed foods, lower refined carbohydrates, and lower added sugar.
  • Criticism often targets messaging, graphics, process, and transparency more than the core food guidance.
  • The new guidance puts animal-source and plant-source proteins on the same level, unlike prior guidance that pushed more plant protein.
  • A middle-ground view can look extreme when the old mainstream sits far toward one side.

References

  • [08:05] “There’s a lot of issues with the observational, where you have this residual confounding. Even though you try to adjust for all of the confounding, you can’t really adjust for it all.”

  • [10:05] “1.4 hazard ratio or odds ratio is the best we see… I’m sorry, it’s not large enough. It’s not big enough.”

  •  

    Why humans can't thrive on plants alone.

    When you think of animal fat, what comes to mind? Unsightly blobs of cellulite? Artery-clogging strips of gristle to be trimmed off your steak and tossed into the trash? Or a sophisticated substance that contains within it the secret to human intelligence?

    • Fat is not just for insulation and energy storage; it’s also for nutrient absorption, cell signaling, and other critical processes.
    • DHA is a fatty acid that humans can't function without, but the fewer animal foods a person eats, the lower their DHA levels tend to be.
    • The easiest way to obtain DHA is to include some fatty fish in one's diet.
     

    Ryan VanderWolk tells his story

    summerizerBackground and first diet model

    • Ryan came to carnivore after teaching nutrition and fitness for almost a decade, stepping away for music and bathroom-remodeling work, and then returning after his own health drifted.
    • His first model was the standard fitness-template diet: six meals per day, oatmeal and protein in the morning, lean proteins, low fat, complex carbs, protein snacks, vegetables and meat at night, and casein protein before bed.
    • That model looked valid because bodybuilding examples, fitness-model diets, certifications, continuing education, expert voices, client progress, exercise structure, and movement away from junk food all reinforced it.
    • The bigger lesson is blind spots: a person can be sincere, educated, paid, certified, and still pass on a model that later turns out to be antibbiological.

    Keto, carnivore, and the 60-day test

    • After seeing himself heavier in music-video footage in 2022, Ryan returned to nutrition research and heard for the first time that there is no essential carbohydrate.
    • In early 2023, he tested keto with salads, avocados, olive oil, vinegar dressing, greens, onions, peppers, lean meat, and eggs; mental acuity, sleep, weight, and GERD improved, but the diet still had cheating and plant-food blind spots.
    • In October 2023, carnivore became the first diet model where the pieces all fit: only animal foods, no carbohydrate need, no fiber requirement, and food he already loved.
    • For the final 10 weeks of 2023, he consumed carnivore material, stocked beef, tallow, butter, ghee, bacon fat, salt, and other basics, then set January 1, 2024 as a 60-day test.
    • Within three weeks, the result was obvious enough that the planned cheat no longer appealed; by six weeks, the diet had become too effective to interrupt.

    Health changes during carnivore

    • In the first 60 days, energy, mental clarity, recall, work performance, sleep quality, and sleep efficiency rose sharply.
    • Chronic GERD had been severe enough to require an endoscopy in 2023, with early Barrett's esophagus damage and an omeprazole recommendation.
    • Longstanding SVT, eczema, delayed visual adjustment, panic attacks, digestive issues, joint pain, lower-back pain, and old ACL-related knee soreness were part of the baseline problem list.
    • Within six weeks, every symptom was either gone or reduced to a manageable level, and later the remaining issues disappeared.
    • From January 1, 2024 to March 1, 2025, Ryan stayed perfectly carnivore for 14 months, reached the best shape and health of his life, and felt as if he had taken 20 years off his age.

    The cat lesson

    • Nine years earlier, Ryan adopted a FeLV-positive shelter cat that was expected to live about a year to a year and a half, with damaged lungs, bad teeth, bad gums, missing fur, coughing fits, and no meow.
    • Researching cats made the diet lesson concrete: cats are obligate hypercarnivores, so the household built a raw-food process with freezer storage, grinding, supplements, omega balance, water, bone, skin, fat, and exact ratios.
    • The cat lived nine years and became a full, long-haired, healthy-looking animal, which reinforced the idea that species-specific nutrition can change the course of decline.
    • That experience combined with Ryan's own dietary progression made the earlier teaching feel wrong, even though he had not known it was wrong at the time.

    Tour relapse and fiber

    • After 14 perfect months, Ryan deliberately broke the diet during Japan and Europe touring, eating ramen, takoyaki, convenience-store foods, catering, pizza, sugar, starch, and mixed meals.
    • In roughly a month, he gained about 20 pounds, and eczema, heartburn, SVT, digestive distress, and other issues returned.
    • Fiber became the clearest example of a blind spot: he had taught that everyone needs fiber, but carbohydrates and fiber are not essential.
    • Microbiome-diversity evidence does not settle the issue for Ryan, because large parts of human history and many populations had little or no fiber, and carnivorous animals do not seek dietary fiber except incidentally through prey contents or hair.
    • On carnivore, bowel function became better and less frequent, gas and bloating disappeared, and reintroducing plant foods made the digestive contrast unmistakable.

    Blind spots in plant-food nutrition

    • Nutritional epidemiology can isolate a positive nutrient in a plant, such as quercetin in onions or vitamins in broccoli, while ignoring the negative side of the same food package.
    • The crack-cocaine analogy makes the point: a pleasant or beneficial effect does not prove the whole item is good once downstream consequences are included.
    • Plant foods bring fiber plus plant-defense compounds such as phytic acid, tannins, oxalic acid, saponins, flavonoids, lectins, phytates, and oxalates.
    • Fiber mechanically passes through a digestive tract that cannot digest cellulose, while protease, lipase, and amylase show that human digestion is built around protein, fat, and limited carbohydrate handling.

    Digestive biology and anthropology

    • Comparing 10 carnivorous animals, 10 herbivorous animals, and humans makes the human digestive system look carnivorous: monogastric, acid-producing, simple, and suited to meat and fat.
    • Herbivores require fermentation systems, large ceca, complex stomachs, massive colons, cud-chewing, hind-gut fermentation, or special fecal reuptake mechanisms to extract nutrients from cellulose.
    • Humans have very strong stomach acid, similar to carnivores and second only to vultures in the comparison used here, which fits scavenging or meat digestion better than herbivory.
    • Human traits such as forward-facing eyes, bipedality, shoulder mobility, hunting ability, and brain development fit a carnivorous anthropology story better than a plant-centered story.
    • Red meat is the ultimate human food because it carries all nine essential amino acids, cofactors, fat, collagen, and other animal-source materials in a digestible package.

    Animals, species-specific diets, and modern food

    • Every animal in nature follows a species-specific diet, while humans are the unusual animal that manufactures food, pays for it, and then loses instinct.
    • Wild animals have acute problems such as injury, predation, infection, and harsh conditions, but chronic human-style disease is not the normal species-specific pattern.
    • Raccoons near human food waste and dogs eating human-style snacks show the same principle: human food can create metabolic problems in other animals.
    • Red pandas look like an exception because they have a carnivore-style digestive system but eat bamboo; habitat loss and lost competitive advantage help explain the mismatch.
    • Herbivores graze all day because plants are low-density and hard to extract from, while carnivores eat nutrient-dense meals and rest; humans on carnivore work the same way.

    Fuel mixing, diabetes, and practical transition

    • Most animals keep a main diet and do not build mixed plates, and mixing carbohydrate with fat creates a fuel-conflict problem like gasoline and diesel in one car.
    • The Randle cycle helps explain why glucose enters the blood first and why that should be read as urgent disposal, not proof that glucose is the preferred fuel.
    • On carnivore, the triglyceride-HDL-blood-sugar triangle improves, type 2 diabetes has been easy to reverse in Ryan's coaching experience, and type 1 diabetes can need much less insulin.
    • Most people should rip the band-aid off into high-fat carnivore, while some may need care around oxalate dumping, medication changes, and the first-month roller coaster.
    • The first month can swing between feeling excellent and feeling awful, but once the microbiome changes and ketogenesis takes over, the benefits become obvious.

    References

     

    Why does nutrition advice seem so confusing, complicated, and controversial? Why are the headlines constantly changing—one day eggs are bad for you, the next day they’re perfectly fine? We are supposed to be the most intelligent creatures on the face of the Earth, and yet we are the only species that can’t seem to figure out what we’re supposed to eat.

    The problem is that the lion share of mainstream nutrition advice comes to us not from biochemistry, physiology, or other scientific fields, but rather from the field of nutrition epidemiology, which is not scientific at all. In fact, of all the methods researchers can use to study human nutrition, epidemiology is arguably the least reliable.

     

    "People only eat meat for pleasure" - we have all seen some version of this chestnut thrown about in conversations

    The people who make this type of assumption about other peoples mental state and emotions are really telling on themselves.

    Carnivores (zero-carb) don't get hedonistic pleasure from eating meat. In fact, like people doing a ketogenic diet, the food noise goes away. This is very important so I need to repeat it: THE FOOD NOISE GOES AWAY. If you don't know what this means - it's probably because you haven't yet experienced the absolute calm that comes from deep ketosis. Almost everyone stumbles through their day thinking about food, what to eat next, what they want, what they could have, etc... All of this goes away. All of it.

    Carnivores do get hungry, but its not a voracious beast that blisses out on each bite like a cat discovering catnip, and the only way to stop is to fight your latent hedonism.

    The "meat for pleasure" rhetorical device is making it some moral issue, but it reflects on the speaker's personal cravings... since they are missing essential nutrients (I assume) they can only think of meat in terms of pleasurable

    It's applying the carb addicted mindset of hedonistic pleasure with every meal. Oh one more cookie, two more, well just this box. That is the pleasure cycle. I can see someone who has only lived in this cycle projecting it onto zero carb carnivore, but it's not accurate at all.

    When I'm clean carnivore I've never looked at meat and thought - ohh yeah this is going to be pleasurable... I'm just hungry and I know this food will solve the hunger, and it will taste good. No lust, no cravings, no "pleasure", and I can skip the meal no problems as well. It's like living on the furthest edge of "I could eat". And when you get full, that's it, very satisfied, you don't want anymore. No "i'm being bad, just another steak".

     

    Does meat cause cancer?

    Last October, the World Health Organization (WHO) released a two-page report entitled "Carcinogenicity of Consumption of Red and Processed Meat," warning the planet that processed meat definitely causes colorectal cancer in humans, and that red meat “probably” causes colorectal cancer in humans. The report listed a total of 20 scientific references. WHO’s frightening anti-meat proclamation made headlines worldwide and had a major impact on how people think about meat and health. While plenty of pro-meat critiques of the WHO report have been published, the majority of those I read took the WHO’s findings at face value and emphasized that the statistical risk associated with eating processed and red meat is very small.

    I strongly disagree. I read the report and all of the experimental studies cited in the report. I found no scientific evidence to support the WHO’s anti-meat cries, and I think it is important to set the record straight.

     

    dive into the history of "ascorbic acid," exploring its roots in Latin and its essential role as an anti-scurvy nutrient. This discussion highlights the importance of understanding our vitamins and the impact of vitamin deficiency on health.

    Article companion: https://theukcarnivore.substack.com/p/understanding-the-importance-of-dhaa

    summerizerCore thesis

    • Vitamin C is tied to the scurvy story, with bleeding-gum avoidance as the narrow endpoint.
    • The form central here is DHAA from animal foods, not plant ascorbic acid or supplement megadoses.
    • GULO gene loss is an efficient adaptation to a meat-based diet.
    • The name ascorbic acid keeps nutrition tied to anti-scurvy thinking across more than a century.

    DHAA as the usable form

    • DHAA is oxidized vitamin C, not omega-3 DHA, and it can convert back into ascorbic acid inside cells.
    • Red blood cells take up DHAA, convert it back into ascorbic acid, and move it through the bloodstream.
    • DHAA uses glucose transporters, especially GLUT1, which gives it strong cellular access.
    • DHAA crosses the blood-brain barrier, enters cell membranes, and reaches mitochondria.
    • The body uses DHAA where oxidative stress is high, especially in tissues with heavy oxygen demand.
    • Blood plasma is mostly ascorbic acid, while heart and lung tissue can contain a large DHAA share of total vitamin C.

    Evolution and recycling

    • Most mammals make vitamin C from glucose, while humans and a few other species lost that pathway through GULO gene loss.
    • That loss fits ancestral reliance on fresh animal foods that already supplied DHAA.
    • Humans recycle ascorbic acid efficiently, so small amounts support collagen and core vitamin C functions.
    • Low carbohydrate intake lowers glucose competition for transporters, making the DHAA pathway more coherent.
    • The problem is not a missing orange; it is a modern misunderstanding of which vitamin C form matters.

    Scurvy, sailors, and food history

    • The sailor scurvy story is not simply a citrus story; it is also a fresh-meat story.
    • Long voyages relied on hardtack, grain, old salted pork, and other depleted rations without fresh meat.
    • When meat ran out or became rancid, sailors were left with grain-heavy food that lacked the needed vitamin C activity.
    • Fresh meat had already been known to cure scurvy, while the later lime story dominated the public lesson.
    • Nutrition databases and old food tables miss the point when they focus only on plant ascorbic acid and omit DHAA in meat.

    Antioxidants, glucose damage, and low-carb metabolism

    • Ascorbic acid is reactive and can become harmful at megadose levels, especially as a supplement isolated from ancestral food patterns.
    • The body’s main antioxidant defense comes from glutathione, superoxide dismutase, catalase, and other stable systems.
    • Meat supplies sulfur amino acids such as methionine and cysteine, which support glutathione production.
    • Ketogenic and carnivore-style eating are linked here to higher glutathione and lower oxidative burden.
    • High glucose drives damaging pathways such as polyol flux, AGEs, PKC activation, and hexosamine metabolism.
    • Glycation damages collagen and elastin, which connects excess sugar to visible aging and tissue breakdown.

    Collagen, immunity, brain function, and food choice

    • Vitamin C is still needed for collagen synthesis, but the needed form can come through DHAA from animal foods.
    • Collagen supplements break down into amino acids, so the body still has to rebuild collagen using vitamin C-dependent chemistry.
    • Glycine, lysine, and NAC support collagen and glutathione more directly than trusting random collagen powders.
    • DHAA also fits immune defense, heart and lung function, brain protection, and mitochondrial protection.
    • Modern fruit is depleted and picked unripe, while fresh meat provides a more bioavailable vitamin C route through DHAA.
    • The practical answer is fresh animal food, not orange juice, fortified flour, or high-dose ascorbic acid.

    References

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