this post was submitted on 28 May 2026
113 points (100.0% liked)
Memes of Production
1596 readers
48 users here now
Seize the Memes of Production
An international (English speaking) socialist Lemmy community free of the “ML” influence of instances like lemmy.ml and lemmygrad. This is a place for undogmatic shitposting and memes from a progressive, anti-capitalist and truly anti-imperialist perspective, regardless of specific ideology.
Rules:
Be a decent person.
No racism, sexism, ableism, homophobia, transphobia, zionism/nazism, and so on.
Other Great Communities:
founded 5 months ago
MODERATORS
you are viewing a single comment's thread
view the rest of the comments
view the rest of the comments
Really free of ML influence?
Meh. Just because a ML said it doesn't mean it's wrong. I.e., anarchists can still read Marxist or even ML literature as long as we read it critically, with care for the statist cognitive biases inherent in their foundations.
Also... the thought of Deceptichum in particular being is a secret ML is absolutely fucking hilarious 😆. Like nah, wrong user.
Yeah not saying that. Just motivating people to read tankie literature in a community that claims to be not influenced by ML is worth pointing out to me.
Agree on the first part. Second part is IMO missing fron the meme.
Fair on both points 😀
pretty sure tankies in threadiverse have nothing to do with ML theory. I lean black simply because I am aware disabilities persist, and vanguarding is required until we are all reenabled. Until we are all empowered, none are.
I mean I'm autistic and I don't need nor want a vanguard. Hierarchical power structures like vanguards are especially dangerous for people like me, because they provide a positive feedback mechanism for people already at the top of the power dynamic. And it kinda doesn't sit right to me that my existence as an autistic person, my disability, is why we "need" a vanguard party. Maybe I'm missing something?
Disabilities≢disorders. Explain to me how can I empower people with paraplegia, comatose, dys/agraphia, dys/apraxia, amputation, aphasia, dysarthria, agnosia, etc..
Autism is absolutely a disability by any reasonable definition of disability. (ASAN is autistic-led, i.e. these are autistic people speaking about our lived experience.)
We would have to ask them (or for the comatose person, whomever is responsible for their safety) for what they need to be included in the community, and then act on it. In general, we can apply the same anarchist principles of freedom, horizontalness, non-domination, continuous consent, dignity, and inclusivity to our projects.
Like I'm not saying to never look out for anyone ever. Of course, we sometimes do need to stand up for people to defend them when they're down. I'm pushing back against vanguardism, the Leninist institutionalization of professional "revolution" that never seems to morph into communism as promised.
that is a vanguard.
Vanguardism.
Nurses and doctors are institutionalized professionals vanguarding people to morph into better healthier versions of what you couldn't do alone.
If you have someone you can rely on, better yet, someone you use as support, you have a vanguard. Realizing how vanguarding is how we grow as mammals, is realizing some institutions are more corrupt than other hierarchical mammals.
I try to lean in empowerment and enabling you to do what you wish.
Not strip you off your desires, needs, and wishes.
The problem with vanguardism isn't that there are people who protect/stand up for others, it's that it inevitably institutionalizes those people into positions of power over those others. Nurses, caregivers, etc. aren't "supposed" to have power over their patients, but they very often do. Humans are already good at protecting and supporting each other--no need to risk creating a power differential by forming a designated vanguard to rigidify it.
Yep, are are still trying find a solution for this quandary
Welcome to the mammalia Class. As a minor, did you consent to your caregivers’ care methods? Were you allowed to adult? Get educated?
Ok but at that point, why still use "vanguard"? I'd understand wanting to reclaim it to mean something other than its historical meaning. But as it stands, when most people hear "vanguard", they understand it to mean Lenin/Stalin. And I think anyone building a revolution based on a "vanguard" broadly speaking would need to be super fucking careful to not fall into that trap themselves.
This is why child liberation theory is a thing. You're right that we give parents power over their children, and an anarchist analysis would say that's a bad thing.
I need you to reflect, how, why, and when. MLs, esp. guardians know when those liberations can be applied. For when, why, and∗ how you exercise those liberations is how those children will praxis and react in the future. Until children can just be born with all the knowledge and practice to be independent, Vanguarding them is in our selection as a species.
I don't know what this means. Someone not knowing how to liberate themselves and learning it from someone who does is not a state of them being under the power of the teacher. Teaching does not inherently entail restriction in autonomy and is only an assertion of power to the extent that we allow it to be.
Also, children's liberation is absolutely a thing and you can/should read about it.
Educating the next generation on how they too have to liberate their own children is crucial vanguardism. This includes teaching children how to dearrest, defend, liberate, organizeds, intersect, aid, etc.. MLs are highly aware when, if ever, they’ll be able to do so for their comrades, and future comrades.
The theory of conceptualizing consequences and reflecting is a cognitive skill not many realize. Being ablemto formulate actions and review results is what allows us to progress.
None of this relates to my point though. Everything you mention here is possible (and as an anarchist, necessary) to carry out while treating the children as equals and not infringing on their autonomy.
Science, even neuroscience, never says anything, it suggests things based on evidence but saying implies something is proven. However, that isn't the point or within the ability of science.
Right which is exactly why things like Youth Liberation are so important. There needs to be more freedom and rights for those (fairly or unfairly) labelled youth. They need to have more autonomy over their bodies and other rights in the world.
🤝 glad we agree that children need to be empowered gradually until they are able to defend and free themselves off arrests. You also teach’em wilderness thriving training too, right?
We're not sure that's what we said or agreed exactly.
No, we have no ability to do that.
🫂. I know at the least mines will know how to fish, lay traps, hunt, and gather.
We're vegan, so it's unlikely we would teach others to fish or hunt. But gathering we could do.
The problem isn't we don't know how, the problem is we do not have long with the young people, we are trying to teach them emotions, consent, and how to fight back against oppression etc.
I feel like there's a disagreement on the definition of vanguardism. I didn't know it exactly, so i looked it up on Wikipedia and AnarWiki, and i get from those that a key element of the "strict" (leninist) definition is that it applies to a whole society rather than individual cases, and that it requires a minority of educated people to guide a mass of uneducated people, implying that the uneducated masses can take no part in it.
What you describe as one on one relations would seem to fall more under general "solidarity" than vanguardism to my eyes.
Also, vanguardism is by this definition not horizontal, neither consensual.
Feel free to correct my uneducated ass, but with the knowledge i have, it seems that you are using a much wider definition of vanguardism than the original one.
What∗ are minors?
How do you intersect the unable to empower themselves? Like minors?
I am taking indeed a holistic approach to our species vanguarding the next generation of us.
Do you think there are more older educated people than the non-educated?
Oh, my bad if it felt like the case, but i'm not saying vanguardism is not a good/necessary strategy.
I'm saying that it cannot be horizontal/consensual, but maybe things have to be not horizontal/consensual, i'm not sure about that.
Just like we allow adolescents responsibilities and self-development, we strive to horizontalize and consentual relieve off duties. Like advocacy if you want, but it fits squarely in Vanguardism.
Well, that may be what vanguardism strives for or aims at, but not what it is neither how it works. Like socialism isnt communism but may be one way towards it.
They are partially only unable because others treat them so. We have interacted with many many young people and we find them very capable when given the chance to be so.
We do too, when we have seen they are responsible and accountable for their actions. There are still many people who never grow the necessary means to independize themselves, including the disabled. Vanguarding until they can do so is ML in a nutshell
We're anarchists, so how we treat youth is as equals for the most part. Unless they are doing something that would cause serious harm to themselves or others and then we would intervene.
We're not really MLs, but that's interesting to know.
I disagree. Many share important ideological things such as democratic centralism and many use the same talking points offline MLs use to defend their favorite states. In practice they also always seem to fall back to ML approaches when asked about what to do.
I'm pretty sure tankies in threadiverse haven't read any theory ml or otherwise
Damn, I'm having an identity crisis. Am I a dogmatist who reads theory and blindly accepts everything I read, or do I not read theory at all 🤔
Do you actually have any reason for thinking that we don't read theory, btw, or is this just another case of, "They're bad anyway so it's fine to just make up whatever about them?"
You're a dogmatist who blindly accepts general vibes and cargo cults shit you half overheard from people who are wrong or you've been outside and I'm not talking about you but I don't think that's the case given this comment
"Dogmatically accept a general vibe" is a new one for me. It's a very funny example of how comically baseless your criticisms are. So obsessed with shitting on us about every single thing that you can't even keep things straight. Won't let us have a single positive quality even to keep your story straight.
Let me repeat my precious question: is there anything about the "general vibe" I supposedly follow that actually deviates from the theory I supposedly haven't read? Do you actually have any reason to think we don't read theory, or are you just shitting on us in every possible way you can concieve of, with no basis in reality?
Sorry some shit head deleted my perfect most count after I abandoned this account so I guess j need to reply to you I think you collectively tend to identify with communism and its brajding more than doing communism in reality its a oroblem
No they do read, especially crap such as Engels On Authority
bruv, reread what I commented.
We can seize the memes of Marx-Leninism without praxing the acts.
Black anarchism is ML praxis, but more about empowering each other, than excommunicating people for contrivances.
e.g. Blåhaj is an ML instance, but Nexus Ancap. This doesn't mean they need to defederate and gulag each other.
Hmm maybe we are just not getting each other. I feel like I precisely replied to a part of your comment, but you seem to think I really missed the point.
To me this doesnt make sense, and from a hlance your links dont seem to be able to explain that to me. Doesnt mean its not there, just that I dont get it. I connect ML praxis with hierarchical, authoritarian and exclusionary organizing and I dont see that really reflected in your link.
I wouldnt describe those instances with those words, but I think we also just use them differently
Thoust needs more reading.
MLs are horizontal, vanguardian and inclusionary when organizing. They just are more aware some folks excel at vanguarding better than direct actors, aiders, intersecters, solidarity, etc. etc.. Not everyone is Superman, but I can definitively trust Lois Lane can get her hands on the list of the Legion of Doom’s secret addresses, or say Superboy intersecting with many people in a rally. Awareness of how people excel at other things over other things is just being aware people are different. And MLs accept those facts are real, and need to be accounted when organizing anything.
We are no longer going to talk about tankies, I pray.
I exemplified praxis over meming. The rules are in place for actual enforcements. “Influence” here meaning actually mimicking Joseph Stalin for enforcing his views over all. e.g. “I would hate to gulag you for ‘wrongthink’”
Pray all you want.
The definition of a tankie is a person that supports the idea that a country should have the right to use its military or paramilitary forces for suppressing unwanted domestic civilian activity.
If you do support tankie regimes, such as that of China or the Russia, you are a tankie.
Tankies are not okay. You see a tankie, punch him on the face. Thank you for your attention.
Sorry, I don't read LLM prompts by @flatworm7591@lemmy.dbzer0.com Try again on another alt.
Well, here's my oldest one with actual activity. Good enough?
That works!
Did you take a moment to read my profile’s posts&comments?
If you are gonna throw around random accusations with zero evidence, that's [bad jacketing[(https://anarchist-archive.org/library/en/anonymous-not-liking-someone-doesnt-mean-theyre-a-cop-on-bad-jacketing).
That's a poor analogy. It's a federated network. No one is "gulaged" when we ban them. They've got the rest of the threadiverse to interact with. A "gulag" analogy would be apt if we had the ability to ban transphobic accounts from the whole of the fediverse, but we don't have that power. All we can do is stop them from entering our space.