this post was submitted on 14 Apr 2026
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[–] queermunist@lemmy.ml 72 points 2 days ago (1 children)

He was a radical dissident that was killed by the government for criticizing them and for agitating the masses with his speeches.

Totally not political.

[–] TranscendentalEmpire@lemmy.today 35 points 2 days ago (3 children)

Even worse...... He was a radical dissident that was killed by reactionaries in his own community. Even the Romans were like....... You guys sure about this?

[–] naom3@hexbear.net 25 points 2 days ago* (last edited 2 days ago) (1 children)

The whole pilate not wanting to execute jesus and the crowd shouting for clemency for barabas instead was probably added later to make christianity more palatable to the romans who didn’t want to see themselves as the villains

I mean..... Who hasn't wanted to edit their works of fiction at some point or another?

[–] SorosFootSoldier@hexbear.net 24 points 2 days ago (1 children)

Jesus, the real guy as depicted in the bible, would have taken a whip to your average chud to drive them out of the temple. But today modern anglo heretics use Jesus as a blank slate to project their fucked up shit onto.

[–] GalaxyBrain@hexbear.net 9 points 1 day ago

Bible Jesus wouldnt approve of like...aby of this but he also thought the world was gonna end innlike 30 years max. Apocalypticism was huge amongst jews at the time, like Beatlemania. Dude eas badically preaching to that Christmas is coming up soon and Santa is warching bt that parents do but with God ans the end times. If he thought shit was gonna keep going another couple thousand years he probably would have acted very different.

[–] jack@hexbear.net 13 points 2 days ago (2 children)

he was definitely executed by the Roman state, that the Jews did it has no historical support

[–] TranscendentalEmpire@lemmy.today 17 points 2 days ago (3 children)

I was working within the framework of the Bible, the vast majority of which has very little to no historical support.

[–] jackmaoist@hexbear.net 10 points 1 day ago

The bible is also Roman propaganda

[–] jack@hexbear.net 12 points 2 days ago (1 children)

fair enough, I was thinking of the historical dude

[–] BodyBySisyphus@hexbear.net 6 points 1 day ago (1 children)

He was a fictional character invented by an apocalyptic Jewish sect a century or so after his supposed life.

[–] jack@hexbear.net 12 points 1 day ago (1 children)

No serious historian thinks that. Jesus was definitely a real dude who was really a religious leader and really got executed.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historical_Jesus

[–] BodyBySisyphus@hexbear.net 2 points 1 day ago (1 children)

Historians generally agree that there was a dude named Yeshua of Nazareth who was executed by the Romans but

The problem is that such a reductive historical Jesus is similar to Robin Hood or King Arthur, where the core person (if there ever was one to begin with) has been effectively lost, and potential candidates are presented as much as 200 years from when their stories traditionally take place.

[–] jack@hexbear.net 3 points 1 day ago (1 children)

That's not really a good comparison at all. There is not actually any direct evidence for King Arthur at all, even if it's possible he's somehow extremely loosely based on a figure that might have existed somewhere at some point. There is literally nothing we can say about a historical King Arthur. And Robin Hood has always been a purely folkloric figure, never even claimed to be a real historical person.

Compared to Arthur, we know far more about Jesus from far more sources - where he lived, when and how he died, who killed him, a few specific events from his life (baptism by John being the strongest one). We know about him from Jewish, early Christian, and Roman sources. We can guess within a decade where he was born. We know the name of his brother and the role he played in running the religious movement that formed after Jesus died! We have sources from only a decade or two after his death that discuss people who knew him personally.

Yes, the gospel stories are either obviously legendary or at least impossible to verify with the sources we have available. They were written after the religion was establishing a doctrine and they're full of contradictions with each other and with the non-canonical gospels as the followers of Jesus competed to define who he was and what he did. They probably do contain some genuine historical truths - specific actions, sayings, or miracles performed (magicians were a big deal in Judaism at this time). There's probably no way for us to separate out the real from the fictional, but that is not the same as saying it's all fictional.

[–] BodyBySisyphus@hexbear.net 1 points 1 day ago (1 children)

where he lived,

Not with any degree of specificity, it's not like they had his address in an antiquarian phone book.

when and how he died,

We can assume that a guy got executed around 33 AD but not even what he got executed for. As the article mentions, there were probably hundreds of itinerant preachers around that time that could have been convenient pegs to hang the rest of the story on.

who killed him,

Not really:

"But notice that now we don't even require that is considered essential in many church creeds. For instance, it is not necessary that Jesus was crucified under Pontius Pilate. Maybe he was, But even if we proved he wasn't that still does not vindicate mythicism. Because the 'real' Jesus may have been executed by Herod Antipas (as the Gospel of Peter in fact claims) or by Roman authorities in an earlier or later decade than Pilate (as some early Christians really did think). Some scholars even argue for an earlier century (and have some real evidence to cite)

a few specific events from his life (baptism by John being the strongest one).

According to what? The New Testament or someone citing the New Testament?

[–] jack@hexbear.net 2 points 23 hours ago (1 children)

Not with any degree of specificity, it's not like they had his address in an antiquarian phone book.

Obviously. If they didn't live in a palace, who's address do we know? Preposterous and irrelevant.

We can assume that a guy got executed around 33 AD but not even what he got executed for. As the article mentions, there were probably hundreds of itinerant preachers around that time that could have been convenient pegs to hang the rest of the story on.

We don't need to assume a guy got killed because there are multiple sources for Jesus's crucifixion by the Romans. There were definitely hundreds of itinereant preachers who could've spawned religions. One of them, Jesus, led to Christianity and a complex web of mythologies were constructed around him after his death.

Not really:

"But notice that now we don't even require that is considered essential in many church creeds. For instance, it is not necessary that Jesus was crucified under Pontius Pilate. Maybe he was, But even if we proved he wasn't that still does not vindicate mythicism. Because the 'real' Jesus may have been executed by Herod Antipas (as the Gospel of Peter in fact claims) or by Roman authorities in an earlier or later decade than Pilate (as some early Christians really did think). Some scholars even argue for an earlier century (and have some real evidence to cite)

Rome killed him. What scholars, exactly, are arguing for an earlier century?

According to what? The New Testament or someone citing the New Testament?

Most of the Pauline Epistles were indisputably written by a dude named Paul in the Levant a few decades after Jesus's death. He wrote about James. He wrote about actually existing churches and conflicts. These were not constructed a century later (except for the ones that obviously were,which has been determined via textual criticism and analysis) - they are much closer to contemporary than most classical historical figures! Just because it is in the Bible doesn't mean it's automatically fake. It is a corpus to which we can apply historical criticism like any other, not some exceptional fabrication.

[–] BodyBySisyphus@hexbear.net 1 points 22 hours ago* (last edited 22 hours ago)

Preposterous and irrelevant.

No, there's a point here. While history might be unable to converge on a lot of figures who actually lived due to poor recordkeeping and the inherent unreliability of a predominantly oral tradition, I was pointing out the alternative possibility that he was a composite figure based on multiple dudes who might've shared superficial similarities with the fictional character in the book but which can't be localized to a specific personality. The idea that that there was a Real Historical Jesus that was the prime mover for the ideological offshoot that went on to become Christianity ignores the more reasonable possibility that the movement arose as the result of the coordinated actions of a lot of people who converged on an account of a life that could have happened

We don't need to assume a guy got killed because there are multiple sources for Jesus's crucifixion by the Romans. There were definitely hundreds of itinereant preachers who could've spawned religions. One of them, Jesus, led to Christianity and a complex web of mythologies were constructed around him after his death.

The non-Christian sources all leave a lot to be desired. From the RationalWiki article:

The Jewish historian Josephus is claimed to be the earliest non-Christian to mention Jesus, in his Antiquities of the Jews (ca. 93-94 CE) with the two references being referred to as the Testimonium Flavianum and the "Jamesian Reference". However, there is much debate regarding how much of the Testimonium Flavianum (if any of it) was written by Josephus as there is no reference to it before the 4th century.

In his Annals (ca. 109 CE) Tacitus gives a brief mention of a "Chrstus" (generally read as "Christus" but in reality it could just as easily be read "Chrestus"), in a passage that shows evidence of tampering and contains no source. Also, the entire section of the Annals covering 29-31 CE is missing: “That the cut is so precise and covers precisely those two years is too improbable to posit as a chance coincidence.” His account is also at odds with the Christian accounts in The apocryphal Acts of Paul (c. 160 CE) and "The Acts of Peter" (150-200 CE) where the first has Nero reacting to claims of sedition by the group and the other saying thanks to a vision he left them alone.

Pliny the Younger was a Roman official who wrote innumerable letters. In one (ca. 112 CE), he references "Christians" (but not Jesus), and his "Christ" could have referred to innumerable other "messiahs" that various Jews were following.


Most of the Pauline Epistles were indisputably written by a dude named Paul in the Levant a few decades after Jesus's death. He wrote about James. He wrote about actually existing churches and conflicts. These were not constructed a century later (except for the ones that obviously were,which has been determined via textual criticism and analysis) - they are much closer to contemporary than most classical historical figures! Just because it is in the Bible doesn't mean it's automatically fake. It is a corpus to which we can apply historical criticism like any other, not some exceptional fabrication.

In addition to Paul writing about events two decades after the fact and never actually meeting Jesus,

Paul had no knowledge of Jesus' early life, just his claimed ultimate activities, and his teachings sometimes seem at variance with those of Jesus in the Gospels. He also does not mention the handful of churches that arose in Jesus' name, but having nothing to do with his own Christianity. Although Paul writes about numerous other people seeing Jesus, he provides no corroborating evidence or means by which they could be identified. He does (e.g. in Galatians) speak of meeting some of the Disciples, but, as the John Frum cult shows, even the mention of James (the Just) as Jesus' brother doesn't mean much as John Frum got Prince Philip, Duke of Edinburgh (who has only sisters) as a brother only 17 years after the first record of his movement.

Just because he talks about real stuff doesn't mean he can't also be making stuff up or embroidering actual events with fictional details. The existence to churches dedicated to Jesus also doesn't really say much, since there are a lot of churches dedicated to fictional entities.

[–] GalaxyBrain@hexbear.net 4 points 1 day ago (1 children)

Majority is a pretty bold statement. There are aspects without historical support, jews were most likely never Egyptian slaves and were probably a sect within the Canaanites that grew to dominance. I woild say that literal divine intervention is ahistorical, but while for sure skewed to the side of the writers, there is a solid amoimt of historical support behind the broad strokes of events in the Bible. The specifics and the god stuff isnprivsvlt made up but to say the vast majority has no historical support is absurd.

The majority of the new testament is personal testimony that was handed down by word of mouth for generations before actually being written down......

[–] LeeeroooyJeeenkiiins@hexbear.net 11 points 2 days ago* (last edited 2 days ago) (2 children)

that the Jews did it has no historical support

??? why does so much indicating that pontius pilate was being pressured by Jewish leaders come up when i google it

Because it really seems like the state executed him... at the behest of local reactionaries

[–] AssortedBiscuits@hexbear.net 13 points 2 days ago (1 children)

The local compradors didn't have control over the Roman state apparatus by virtue of being colonized subjects. Pilate indeed had Jesus's blood on his hands and no amount of making a public spectacle by washing his hands changes this. The only person who outranked Pilate was the Roman emperor himself, which meant everything fell on his shoulders. He could've just freed Jesus and there was no one there to stop him because Pilate had a Roman legion under his command while the Judean compradors didn't.

[–] LeeeroooyJeeenkiiins@hexbear.net 3 points 2 days ago (2 children)

He could've just freed Jesus and there was no one there to stop him because Pilate had a Roman legion under his command while the Judean compradors didn't

According to this shit he had 6k soldiers in a city of 2.5 million so uhhhh i don't think things work the way youse guys do

[–] RedDawn@hexbear.net 9 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago) (1 children)

Simply put, the article you link is wrong. 2.5 million number should have been a big red flag, actual estimates for the population of Jerusalem in those times are 20 to 30 thousand, swelling to 100,000 or more during the passover festival but still an order of magnitude lower than that article is claiming.

[–] LeeeroooyJeeenkiiins@hexbear.net 4 points 1 day ago (1 children)

I picked one link that wasn't a reddit thread because I assumed the BBC is an actual source, i don't care enough to go through all this shit but my point was "there was no one there to stop him" is false whether it's 2.5 million or 100k. I also see tons of nerds arguing over the estimate of the actual strength of his army, I see one nerd claim he'd only have an auxiliary cohort of 600 "but could call on herod's army of around 3000 if necessary but that would have been politically awkward

There is no set of numbers im seeing here where "the romans can just do whatever the fuck they want and pontius pilate should have absolutely 0 concern over unrest" is guaranteed

[–] RedDawn@hexbear.net 3 points 1 day ago (1 children)

A few thousand troops seems like plenty to maintain order at a festival in a city with 100,000 men women and children, many of whom probably didn’t have strong feelings one way or the other about Jesus or might have sided with him over the religious establishment. More soldiers could be called up from nearby if really necessary. All we know for sure is Pilate was the one with the legal authority to carry out execution and he chose to do it in the particularly Roman style of crucifixion.

A few thousand troops seems like plenty to maintain order at a festival in a city

It's a whole region though

[–] AssortedBiscuits@hexbear.net 0 points 1 day ago (1 children)
  1. Most people supported or were apathetic towards Jesus because Jesus was just some random dude up until that point, or a charismatic dude who performed miracles if we take the gospel as gospel (lol). Going by history, Jesus was just some dude who most people wouldn't care about one way or another and going by the gospels, Jesus was a charismatic miracle worker who most people liked because of his miracles.

  2. The amount of people who genuinely wanted Jesus dead probably numbered in what, several hundreds at best. An entire Roman legion is shaking in their sandals over several hundred unarmed Judeans who really wanted some dude dead but lacked the initiative to just form a lynch mob and string him up a tree.

[–] LeeeroooyJeeenkiiins@hexbear.net 1 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago)

The amount of people who genuinely wanted Jesus dead probably numbered in what, several hundreds at best

Yea but which several hundreds, and how influential were they

An entire Roman legion

I found a shitty source with bad numbers and then another shitty source that questions him even having a legion so could you give me at least an equivalently shitty source that he even did?

several hundred unarmed Judeans who really wanted some dude dead but lacked the initiative to just form a lynch mob

What if several hundred influential judeans who wanted him dead were pissed off at that not happening and then used any number of reasons to rile up many thousands of others in revolt, or what if pontius pilate was made to credibly fear that result even if it weren't likely

Why was he arrested btw because idk it seems like there'd a reason for that since nameless nobodies don't just stumble onto a crucifix

[–] jack@hexbear.net 10 points 2 days ago (1 children)

What are you seeing that's indicating that? What's understood about the hospital Jesus is very slim. He was a Galilean Jewish apocalyptic preacher. He was baptized by John the Baptist. He was crucified by the Roman state. Beyond that, nothing is certain. He probably has disciples. He was probably a miracle worker as was typical of his time. He probably caused some kind of stir at the Temple. That's about it.

Shit like this stating as fact that pontius pilate was worried about unrest and rioting if he didn't crucify him