I'm not trying to fedpost or any form of 
-posting in any form, more just marveling at the entirely lackluster response of the American public to the maddeningly absurd state of American politics.
Of course Americans are the most propagandized people on Earth, but it's been that way for generations, and at this point I feel like the sheer amount of shit that is allowed to just fly by with full knowledge of the public with little or no 
moments is preposterous. Not to mention the fact that as things continue to get worse, there are more and more people who are desperate and/or unwell, and in such a position as to incite some crazy shit.
Like... at this point, it's just open knowledge that the government is a cabal of bloated parasitic pedophiles, and it has been so for quite some time now. Not just "they MIGHT be doing some creepy shit", but rather they definitely, 100%, without any question have been, are, and will continue to do the most abhorrent type of shit anyone can imagine, for their own sick satisfaction and greed. Conversely, the number of people who've lost someone to the soul-sucking nightmare that is our healthcare system, or who've lost a child or loved one in any of our many shootings, or any number of other reasons to be righteously revolted by this manufactured reality we live in, is surely immense.
While some people are obviously acting out in all the most disgustingly wrong ways (i.e. said shootings), there's quite a lot of people who know the correct people to blame for our collective misery, who also have nothing left to lose, because they've tragically lost it all already.
So... am I just wrong to expect that more type shit should be going down by now?
It's fear.
I think deep down US citizens know that the moment they step out of line, they're fucked. Their every move is watched and judged by a panopticon that will isolate and punish them if they rebel from system too far.
I think when people accuse western leftists of being lazy or just doing this because of treats, they miss the forest for the trees. We are shown the pain and suffering from the nations we invade and there is this underlying threat of "this could be you. You defy us and you'll accomplish nothing and die like an animal and you will be painted as a fanatical idiot as we do so." This sort of creates this damned if you do, damned if you don't feeling of helplessness and hopelessness.
I wholeheartedly disagree, I don't think it's fear any more than really, that gringos are just way too fucking comfortable living in the imperial core to take any real action.
Gringos don't know what that struggle looks like cause they have never lived it. I dont really care if some of them are living in precarious conditions. They have never been bombed or executed extrajudicially or seen major violence like that in their lifetime. And that has made them comfortable. EDIT: And no, seeing violence in TV is no replacement for seeing bombs and dead bodies yourself. The US has been accustomed to seeing dead brown kids n TV all its history, and only shrug it off.
I think if the left in the US really is going to stand up and fight their governemnt, they will have to face a reckoning in which the state's violence is coming hard for the masses, and only relatively large amounts of pain, death and destruction will start mobilizing the left in a more revolutionary way.
Other than that? Look at the state of the US left. It's rather pathetic.
I don't like the idea that the only way for things to change here is to see a bunch of my friends and family die first. I totally get keeping one's head in the sand if the alternative is death and starvation.
If you want the left to grow in times like these you have to give people a path that doesn't require mass death.
I don't mean to be rude with my original comment, but honestly, and sadly, I disagree.
What do you think moved the masses into revolution in Cuba, Vietnam, China, or imperial Russia? All of them had terrible despotic leaderships or situations of colonization that caused inmense suffering.
It's not pretty. But it is a pattern. At the very very most, you might get a socialist (not Bernie) elected through bourgeois democratic means under current US conditions, like was the case for Chavez, Morales, or Allende (with all of their huge flaws).
What can we do as revolutionaries then? Struggle to raise the levels of discipline within our parties, and raise the levels of consciousness of the masses to the largest extent, so that the bloodshed, when it arrives, is reduced to a minimum.
What might be a catalyst for all of this? Maybe Climate change, but this will impact the global south and cause mass death here way before the gringos really start feeling uncomfortable.
History repeats, but it doesn't always have to. I have to believe that a solution without bloodshed can work, because tbh I'm not going to push for conditions to get worse. That's not going to happen. The whole point of politics is to improve peoples lives, not hope they get worse to the point that they start burning things down!
There is only a handful of people who need to shed blood. I will not elaborate and break site rules. We absolutely can, and will, make change happen if we can get a nationwide strike that sticks and replace the people at the top. We know the US government caves when their precious flights get delayed, so imagine how far they'll go if they can't get anything done because all us working folk stop working for them?
I'm not going to let my family starve for a chance at history repeating itself here. No one will. Self-preservation trumps all ideology.
They will open fire on a general strike before they peacefully hand over power. The question then is how you respond to the violence enacted on you and the answer lies within the revolutionary party CL referred to. Additionally, he said prepare for things to get worse before they get better, not make things worse
Maybe I misinterpreted the last comment. I don't believe in making things worse, more working with the conditions we have now vs. waiting for things to get worse. We are far off from a general strike when workers here are so effectively split among every possible line Capitalists can come up with. Age, race, gender, sexuality, where someone was born, which Capitalist party they support, and so much more. And I fear it will get worse for a lot of people as the social media they're addicted to become worse echo chambers with fake AI people telling them stories that are curated to their particular interests.
What I want to see is a whole lot more concerted effort on educating/deprogramming people. Theory is not compatible with the average burger lander. There's good resources out there that explain what's going on in more accessible terms but I see a lot of people on the left focusing more on the "vanguard" before focusing on the workers. Sure, study theory personally but we need more Hasan Pikers and they need to be everywhere, especially at the local level. I'm focusing my time and energy on educating locally, creating & spreading propaganda, and building mutual aid networks around me. If SHTF I want people around where we can trust each other and help keep our needs met.
That’s what a party is for! If you’re educating people on your own, great, but to truly transform society we need a concerted collective effort that goes further than individual conversations. The black panthers got people reading, and their target audience was also not immediately receptive to the idea. We don’t only need a bunch of individuals individually educating their communities, we need those individuals to have the money and resources to reshape their communities in a planned vision. Your efforts are good and valiant, but imagine if you had an organization backing you up, giving you material and strategy that worked elsewhere. Thats the benefit of a party, bringing together the propagandists and activists to focus their energy
I am part of an org and am pushing us to do more outward-facing political education.
A general strike doesn't necessarily mean a picket line, it can be just a bunch of people refusing to come in to work. Do you think they'll hunt down millions of people in their homes for not clocking in?
I think they’ll enslave vast swathes of the population at drone point before peaceful democratic socialism is established
I apologize, my screen didn't show your whole comment and I just saw the first few lines.
I get where you're coming from. I think based on where you're coming from, and if I see the same thing after more reading (Lenin is on my to read list) then maybe I am just a "sympathizer" or a Democratic Socialist or whatever left-lite term you want to use. I know in my personal life that I am the most radical by far, but that doesn't mean much in the global sense.
You're also right that I'm not comfortable with wanting my material conditions to get much worse for something that isn't a guarantee. For all I know if conditions really get bad here we will just become a fascist hellhole and the guys with the $90k pickup trucks with flags hanging out the back will start shooting anyone that's any shade of brown. People like me aren't going to take up arms unless there's literally no option left. My life IS comfortable despite being jobless and having to resort to weird side gigs to get by. Life could be a lot worse.
If Capitalists knew what was good for them they'd keep YouTube free and make the "treats" cheap and plentiful, but IDK if there's enough of them that can be that forward-thinking. The circuses are getting enshittified, and we just hit the edge of losing bread...
Thank you for the thoughtful replies. I will have replies later probably tonight.
Reply is late, sorry about that. It's been a good thread.
I have read this one a couple times. Where I have to have hope is in the business class here failing to act in a way that keeps the illusion going for us burgerlanders. They're not working in tamdem and because the system requires them to be ruthless about squeezing profit from anywhere they can, they lay off people, replace people with AI and self-checkouts, offshore jobs, convert full-time jobs to gig jobs or part-time, etc. That's where we have to come in.
I just can't go with the idea that things have to get SO bad that all of these people have to be literally starving or gunned down by troops before they will demand better. I'm hopeful that even in my suburban, "comfortable" surroundings that I hear a lot more class consciousness around me. There has to be a point where people realize, despite all of the propaganda and despite that subconscious notion that they benefit from the global imperialism, that "hey, I'm getting screwed over too! Not as bad as in Africa, but still". If life isn't good for the average American what does that say about the people in other countries? The American Dream is a nightmare. Imperialism only goes so far when you can't afford a house, a car needs a 15-year loan to purchase, everything costs too much, and wages aren't going anywhere. I have to believe people will break sooner than the point where they can't afford food, right?!?
Sympathizer recommended the Jakarta Method and I believe it would resonate with you. Here is a section from the end I still think about to this day
Additionally, here’s the article on “brainwashing” and why most first world workers appear to be brainwashed by capitalism. You basically already summed up the thesis without knowing it
“My life IS comfortable despite being jobless and having to resort to weird side gigs to get by. Life could be a lot worse”
https://redsails.org/masses-elites-and-rebels/
Organizing is weird here in the states because the people who can afford to take time out of their days to organize are mainly white, mainly middle class, and have fairly comfortable lives. People aren't organizing out of "desperation" because for all intents and purposes that's not what's happening on the ground here. Of course our orgs being full of these people means that we have a hard time interacting with the people we are trying to help and who are truly destitute such as the folks on SNAP, homeless people, chronically unemployed, etc.
I am aware of my privilege and the privilege of those organizing with me. We still are doing ICE watch, are still organizing mutual aid and such, but I don't consider us future leaders or any revolution.
I'm not your kind of Communist. I don't want suffering anywhere, but we're not going to get past suffering if we just sit around and wait for things to get bad.
It's a core complaint I have with a type of "ultra" leftism I encounter on this site. I don't believe in a "vanguard". I believe in empowering everyday working class folks, not some nebulous core of "leaders" who people will magically follow when things get really bad. This whole vanguard concept comes off as wishful thinking. Thinking that the American Revolution is going to look anything like what happened in China or Russia or Cuba is not realistic. Thinking that American leftists have to follow the same steps as in other places is also not dialectical.
If we want to see good changes happen we have to work with the people we have now. That means more mutual aid, more on-the-ground ICE watch and court watch, cop watch, etc. More spreading propaganda. More educating and having endless patience for the American worker who has been fed Capitalist propaganda and beaten down with Capitalist Realism their whole lives. It means figuring out how to make our ideologies work under a tapestry of individualism, because there is a cultural selfishness that I don't believe people in most other countries have. And if that means we have to take baby steps into Democratic Socialism and elect a bunch more Mamdanis, hold a lot more Food Not Bombs, and do a lot more patient educating then so be it.
You don't understand what a vanguard party is at all
The vanguard should be empowering everyday working class folk. It's not supposed to be comprised of only revolutionary wartime leaders. They are meant to maintain a strong working knowledge of Marxist theory in order to educate and guide the working class to develop their revolutionary consciousness and class awareness. The working class, in turn, empower the vanguard through their "spontaneous actions" (protesting, striking, etc.) in a symbiotic relationship of sorts.
Responding to the "vanguard" bits people are commenting on:
I have had some bad IRL experiences with people who considered themselves "vanguard" and that has soured my opinion of the concept. On one occasion a "revolutionary vanguard" group disrupted my org's reading group because apparently we weren't left enough for their liking. That's what the reading is for! They were very disruptive and basically forced the room into a shouting match and a lot of BS for almost an hour before leaving.
Another time a small Marxist org wanted to run some political education night schools. Our chapter decided to try working with them on a joint program since we wanted to hear their perspective and keep trying to unite with other left groups locally. That turned into a disaster! Long story short, the main instigator at this other org tried to break apart couples, saying so-and-so "wasn't supportive", caused a trans comrade a lot of mental anguish, and was a complete jackass to everyone that wasn't 100% on board with their very narrow view of Marxism. And they pushed the same "vanguard" points and of course thought they were going to be that vanguard.
To me if there is going to be a "vanguard" it has to come from the people organizing on the ground, not from study groups. Unfortunately theory and practice are showing me that while in theory this is how the vanguard should form, in practice it just ends up being the loudest people in the room or the people who already have hangups or personality issues gaining an ego and defending it with this theory. People twist things to fit their personal needs and biases all the time. I mean look at all those Christians who love to tell everyone how to live but clearly haven't read what Jesus was all about!
Forgive me for leaning more towards my Anarchist friends' views on this. I believe if leadership forms it should form organically and should be people that are heads down doing the work, not the people who have read the most theory. Theory is great and important to understand, but I don't value it as highly as having on-the-ground experience. I see others posting that the vanguard needs to be organizers. Hopefully ya'll have had better experiences where you live.
I'm sorry you had that experience comrade. That elitist mentality has no place in a true vanguard. Like another poster who responded to you with "you don't understand what the vanguard is." How is that helpful? We should be helping each other with our understanding of theory, not lording our understanding over others.
The vanguard will be made up of teachers and organizers. They will be shoulder to shoulder with you in the trenches, ensuring the revolution is comprised of an educated proletariat rather than a chaotic angry mob.
Imperial Russia was in a relatively novel transition towards parliamentary democracy since the late 19th century and especially since 1905, with the situation still unstable. China in the 30s and Cuba in the 50s were fairly anocratic, with warlords/mob bosses taking over for very short spans before being deposed by the next one. In all 4 cases, the State and especially its legitimacy was weakened, and there were several stages that revolutionary activity flared up in- openings that were taken.
This is not to rule out mass death as a possibility, but I suspect a return of Great Depression conditions (fuel shortages and food shortages, and also telecommunications going down) would be sufficient to get Americans into an insurgent mood. The treat printer definitely has to break down, and while that will happen before climate change really starts hitting America hard, many other things could weaken the state's response capability.
Comfort, fear. Carrot, stick.
MOVE bombing? Daniel Shaver?
Sure it doesn't happen regularly to most of us, but the American government absolutely does do this shit to Americans too.
Michael Reinoehl
Americans have always gotten lynched, but never to the scale of what happened in Iraq, Libya, Afghanistan, Indonesia or Guatemala. When the Klan was operating in the South more or less unrestricted, you saw actual community organizing and defense-attempts, but the black community was too spread to offer any real protection from the overwhelming number of klansmen, who also had the backing of the state's army if anyone truly dared to fight back in an organized capacity. We all saw what happened to the BPP when they tried to organize into real self defense and picking up arms.
There's a Chomsky quote (yes yes I know) where someone asked him something along the lines of "why don't we all just get together and take over the white house/halls of government", and his response was "because they'll fucking shoot you".
My domestic political point of reference (to be arrogant, it should be most Burgers) is the ongoing struggle for black emancipation, and how the state has murdered any future Marcus Garvey with total impunity (see Ferguson). There cannot be a vanguard party under these conditions. As blackpilled and lazy as this is, until the state withers to the point where they can't just put a gun to the back of your skull and call it a suicide, I don't know how effective political organizing can happen. I'm not even talking about violent action against the state (as an apolitical Christian conservative, I discourage such actions), the moment you create a party that could effectively discipline elected officials, you're gonna have three leter agencies throwing so many people in rental vans, Ford will be able to limp along for another year.
read: Even in the age of the Internet, advanced psychology that understands a decentralized brain wiring, and developed biology that tells us how collective intelligence is emergent in eusocial insects, I just can't imagine having any kind of coordination that doesn't follow the Prussian-military-style chain of command.
That would be negated if solidarity existed,but if you're gonna do something and you have no assurance of anyone backing you up,you might as well not do it
Yeah that's where I'm at with my opinions. I think the majority of black Americans, majority of Native Americans, some Asian-Americans, some Latine Americans, and most LGBTQ+ Americans have been ready for revolution for decades. I say "some" and "most" loosely because there's a lot of reaction spread across these groups due to anti-communism being why the diaspora exists or because of white privilege.
Bringing us to the main problem, which is the overwhelming majority of white America will join on the side of fascism. A lot of them would literally eat shit before they call themselves equal to brown and black people. You see it all the time when something bad happens to the oppressed. The so-called middle class white person will run interference for injustice to maintain capitalism.
Even liberals, who are supposedly on our side, disavow any direct action. They were pearl clutching over Luigi killing someone who directly harms them. They cry whenever a cop gets got. And they absolutely, 100% would give their lives to protect the shoe polish on the boots of the American military.
Any escalation towards open revolution will be undermined by white people. We saw it happen with the Black Panther Party. We see it happen today with Native Americans ("Don't hurt the precious oil pipeline poisoning your land nooooooo! Officer Obama, arrest these scoundrels!"). They even condemn Greta for trying to get food to Palestine.
There's no solidarity for leftism in the US, which is why our efforts should be focused on that before we meaninglessly throw away lives in a botched revolution. When we can get whitey to stop supporting troops who carry out war crimes and start supporting wildcat strikes, then and only then can we can start talking about riding off into the Cool Zone.
the rest of it yeah, but Luigi (or more precisely whoever actually did it) was wildly popular and the sentiment among old ladies was that maybe that was fine actually.