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By dehumanizing them you're no different. Treat your enemies with respect, they are human too, just dumb pieces of shit. Don't lower yourself to their level. Be better than them.
Keep pleading for their respect when they have a gun to the back of your head. I'm sure that will work.
The thing is, I'm not pleading for their respect. I won't get it. I just won't lower myself to their level so I will not grant them the argument "see, they are doing the same".
If you do not understand the principles of defending the humanity you love from the people who want to destroy it, then you are WORSE THAN USELESS. These people are actively destroying society and the very "humanity" you want to preserve... yet you still won't attack them??
You are nothing but a useful idiot to fascists with that kind of pacifist attitude... Literally. You are talking down others from action against the things you want to defend from... You're actively a turncoat against the humanity you want to defend. Seriously, pathetic.
Who said I won't attack them? Of course I would, and have. But within the law, without dehumanizing them.
You call me pathetic, although I'm actively fighting against the far right, oppression and crimes against humanity.
You, on the other hand, show you are just as bad as they are.
lol
their death camps will be perfectly legal
They're not, but is that an excuse to be lawless too? If the enemy commits war crimes, how are you any better if you do the same?
oh but history shows they were
we don’t have to guess how this plays out, educate yourself
‘better’ is for the strong and civilized, we are not strong in this mess and civil went out with Jan 6th
they’ve broken the social contract, they no longer deserve its protection
but it’s moot, this will go the same way it did in Germany
You might not live in a civilized country, I luckily still do.
if you’re not in the US I can’t claim to be informed enough
i do know Nazis are resurfacing everywhere though so more than likely you’re just fucking oblivious
I'm actively fighting them. Still in a legal way. If war breaks out, then I'll go to other less lawful ways.
read about nazi germany it will be too late
in the US they are playing boiling the frog and soon they’ll escalate all the way, it will happen fast and violent
i’m not advocating violence, I’m saying we’re going to regret not having done so
paradox of tolerance should be required study
Dude, my entire family was in the resistance. My great grandfather hid jews on his farm, was captured, tortured and died in a concentration camp. My family smuggled crashed British pilots back to England and liquidated traitors (family in my mother's side) and blew up train tracks and communication lines (family on my father's side). When my grandfather died, we found a huge walk-in closet filled with gas masks, emergency food, machine guns and ammo, a chest filled with hand grenades. In The Netherlands. I've had a lot of history lessons in school. Plain history, political history, economic history. I know a lot about nazis, how they come to power, how they work.
I see what's happening right now. The lack of democratic and media resistance right now leads to them gaining power, which will lead us having to escalate to more violent and unlawful measures. I don't want it to come like that, that's why I'm politically fighting the far right in my country (and fighting fake news) and even though they have taken too much power in my eyes, they can't just do whatever the fuck they want.
The US, however, is a failed state and the democrats were way to passive (and also too right wing themselves). So there's no hope. Violence may be the only option. But just don't dehumanize your enemy, don't treat others how you don't want to be treated yourself.
then don’t act fucking surprised
not reading the rest of that wall, you should know better
They dehumanize themselves. Like, aspirationally. On purpose.
... Said Hitler about the jews. Said Netanyahu about Palestinians. Said Trump about trans people.
If you think you are superior and consider them untermenschen, how are you any different from a fascist exactly?
When a fascist talks shit, it's talking about itself. Literally always.
Also, not sure trump has said that about trans people. Think he's saving it for the midterms. You're just saying crap.
Blue hair, for one. Very important difference. But stuff that will hit harder for stuffy old intellectual sorts, in case any read this:
I can explain what i mean when i use words and actually consider stuff intellectually, rather than relying on shallow understandings and gut emotional reactions that barely rise past the level of aesthetics and i valorize and absolutely never explore or apply nuance to. My conclusions flow from my observations rather than the other way around. I tend to revel in rather than abhor complexity. Hey...
Removing DEI, stripping trans service people of their rights and benefits, denying trans people their identity... Yeah, sure, I'm just talking crap.
There are fascist intellectuals too. Remember Oppenheimer for example? There were many nazi scientists in nazi Germany. Being a fascist doesn't automatically mean being dumb or ignorant. It means having a lack of compassion as they don't care about causing harm to others and they they believe there's a rank in people, in which they are better than others. Ubermensch and untermensch. They believe some people are more human than others and deserve more rights. Dehumanizing groups of people is usually done to justify crimes against humanity. Murder, torture (like forced medical experimentation like Mengele did), slavery, re-education, sterilization, extermination, etc.
No matter how evil, fucked up, imbicile, hateful or corrupt someone may be, they are still human and should be treated as such. Even if they don't treat others like that. Because classifying someone or a group as less human is fascism.
I am better than those bad people. I'm a better person. I'm not more human than them.
Look at the world's history, or what's happening right now. Humans are fucking evil and fucked up. Some are good, some are bad, but we're all still human.
Oh absolutely trying to kill trans people, for the base, but does not personally give a shit. Is saving the rhetoric for an election.
There were. There aren't anymore because it's a fundamentally anti intellectual movement. Their analyses all amount to a shallow disdain for complexity and contrivance to baffle shitlibs into alliance.
Again, not a distinction im making or care about. This is not meaningful to me Who are you arguing with? Is this just action for the sake of action on your part?
Example: Jordan Peterson.
There are many others.
Don't underestimate your enemy my friend. Just because the ones in the foreground are low IQ screaming idiots doesn't mean the quiet ones behind the curtains are low IQ too.
It's not about intellect per se. It's about empathy. Take a sociopath for example. They can be highly intellectual but their goal will justify any means because they lack any form of it.
I'm not saying intellect has nothing to do with the rise of fascism, because fascists are very good at manipulating low IQ people with disinformation. These low IQ people, the heard, won't see the harm they do because that would drive their support away so it's all being hidden and twisted.
But the core of the rise of fascism is definitely planned by intellectual people and you should not underestimate that.
Don't just look at the skinheads on the street. Look at the people funding fascist tyrants.
We were talking about dehumanizing people, weren't we?
...im being kind of an ass now that you are sort of engaging. Sorry about that. Spoiled by the previous bits of the discussion.
But i think there's another element to this that you're missing: why does a person start becoming a fascist? Whats the value, internally and discursively, of various models?
Here's some facts that might seem disconnected. Follow along. Promise it's going somewhere.
Studies show; brains prone to authorotarian psychology tend to have a much stronger disgust response.
It tends to flow from someone who is absolutely not special in any positive way feeling a need to see themselves as special/heroic/virtuous.
It comes in part from a need to have a prestigious identity while being individually kind of a piece of shit. From needing to see one's self as good but finding no good in one's self beyond membership in a group that can be collectively valorized (however dishonestly; the imperative matters, truth does not).
Erasing any potentially positive identity a potential fascist could subsume itself into, driving home that its something you would have your day ruined if ypu stepped in, and pointing how how it's pitiful disgusting and weak, could potentially save lives. There would still be structural issues to address, of course, but right now we have an immediate problem to solve.
It might even have some preventative value to find people showing early symptoms, when they may still be people, and pinning them down, spraying them with antifungal 'antifascist' drugs, via the placebo effect.
No, you said intellectuals. He's exactly what i described. Please read what i wrote before replying.
You couldn't name one.
Clown shit
I have explored that system, stared into that abyss. Im aware of how it works, and it is not, in the ways that matter to me; a person. I can get my ass kicked by the computer in a 30 year old video game. Doesn't make it a person.
Even uf you stretched the definition to inclhde ghouls like gingrich and bannon; they're not entirely welcome in those spaces anymore
Yeah they're rich; not smart. Different. Arguably exclusive.
Scroll up.
So....
You shouldn't need an excuse to be lawless; laws are usually bad, and never good in cases where something else wouldn't do the trick.
They're a tool for the powerful to save face and appropriate progressive efforts when on the defensive, to divide us and keep us complacent when they're on the offensive. They are the shield and sword of injustice. Not a fan.
Your conscience, fine. But laws? That is, at best; clown shit.
Thanks to laws I live in a wealthy country where I can walk safely on the street anywhere any time without being in danger. No one has guns, there's safe infrastructure, crime levels are low. But if you live in the US, a corrupt and failed state, or any other corrupt country, I get your sentiment.
Thats one word for 'colonialism'. Samesies btw! And there are streets where i cant use the sidewalk bevause of all the tents, so fuck it.
Because of the laws and their enforcers; i never feel safe. Maybe this is just a class position thing?
Fair, but it's not the guns that tend to scare me here.
Corrupt; you can explain what the fuck that means, that just seems like liberal standard english for 'i don't like'. Failed: nope, can tell by all the men with guns who would be cheered if they killed me, but i wouldn't share a glass of water with in case they choked and i was disappeared forever.
But you seem to be avoiding the shit i actually said and just scanning for things you can use in arguments that support what you already believe, rather than trying to understand what im saying. If only there were a famous politician who said you should read like that...
You equating someone who calls a Nazi sub-human with a nazi themselves DOES make you pathetic. You ARE pathetic for failing to realize that the Nazis BETRAY humnaity... yet you still want to be civil with them??
You are a pathetic failure of the Paradox of Tolerance when you tolerate Nazis existing but do not tolerate people calling nazis names... Genuinely, you have a child's outlook on life.
"Just as bad", yea, to someone whs too fucking stupid to understand how ugly self-defense can get... Again, you are a pathetic child.
Reflexive simplistic judgement without willingness to pull apart or confront uncomfortable ideas that may threaten orthodoxy; most antifascist thought.
Tbh, I do agree with him that we shouldn't dehumanize. Fascists are humans, who deserve to be put down. There. Easy. No dehumanization, and you can still say that they deserve bullets blowing their brains out the back their heads.
No, people who sherk their humanity, willingly and emphatically, do NOT deserve to be humanized. Yes, we need to remember they are humans, but they are terrible people who choose to be terrible. Only a fucking moron or a fellow terrible person thinks they deserve to be treated better than they treat others.
That's the excuse for Hamas to commit terrorist acts on Israel. It's also the excuse for Israel to commit the worst war crimes of this century by far. Lowering yourself to the level of the enemy makes you just as bad. Be better.
I think very little of them, I'm disgusted by them, I hate them with everything I've got, but I will not dehumanize them or justify crimes against humanity against them. No matter whether they would do that to me. They deserve consequences for their behavior. They need to be sentenced for their crimes. Legally, democratically, within the law. If we don't, how are we any different? They think they are better humans than others, you know, like the nazis. Untermenschen. If you're not a nazi, fascist or racist, you won't dehumanize others.
No matter who it is, people need to realize who are defending themselves and who are going out of their way to commit offenses. When it comes to politics, people conveniently forget bad people DO exist, on all sides.
It DOES NOT MATTER what is currently going on in the world. It DOES NOT MATTER if they claim to be humans. It DOES NOT MATTER if you want to continue calling them humans.
What you need to learn is... these are humans who willingly betray the humanity you claim to want to defend... yet you continue to defend them, all in the name of some childish idea of "justice".
I agree things should be done legally where possible. What you need to learn is the law is not good! It doesn't create justice. It doesn't create peace. They're just rules people are supposed to follow, good or bad.
What DOES matter, is people like you constantly running interference for literally and directly evil people. Stop equating people defending themselves with people who want to commit the offenses. There is a HUGE difference between someone doing something bad to defend their own freedom, and someone who wants to go out of their way to remove someone else's freedom.
You can treat them as humanely as you want. What you NEED to learn is... they are enemies of the humanity you want to protect! Literally, directly, enemies of humanity. Why do you insist on equating them with people on defense?
This is a topic about literal nazis, remember. Why do you equate people calling Nazis sub-human with nazis, when nazis are the ones who DIRECTLY AND WILLINGLY betray humanity? Why are you failing to defend humanity?
Whether they deserve it or not, I won't dehumanize them; because I don't want to become someone who dehumanizes others.
I will certainly fight them, I will resist them, but I will not consider them anything but human.
Being a human is very, very different than having humanity. People need to realize these are humans ... who willingly betray their humanity.
They are literally and directly enemies of humanity, who need to be treated as such.
Right - fight them! Resist them! But do not let them push you into being inhuman yourself.
If even namecalling is too much for you, then you do not, in fact, understand how to defeat horrible people, let alone fascists destroying humanity.
I'm not talking about name-calling. Go hog wild with that, it seems fairly effective.
I'm talking about dehumanizing them. Deciding that any means that will end them is justified. Treating them like feral animals. Harvesting their organs for profit, like outhouseperilous suggested further up. That's what I'm pushing back on.
While the organ harvesting is a bit much, you must realize how utterly asinine and inept being against violence is when the target is openly vile people who choose to betray humanity.
Yes, we must always keep context in that these people are bad because they CHOOSE to betray humanity, but remembering context is wholly different than deciding to go against proven means for defeating this hateful, anti-humanity ideology...
Who's arguing against violence? I'm saying don't dehumanize them. Humans are quite capable of being monstrous and horrible all on their own.
Absolutely fight back against the fascists! My grandad did, and I think he's a fine example to follow. He didn't have to treat them as something other than people to do that, though. He just treated them as the enemy they were.
If treating someone as an enemy isn't dehumnaizing, I don't know what is. What you need to realize is, some people betray their title of human, and deserve zero humanity, because they have betrayed the very humnaity you want to preserve.
Yes, they're still humans: The specific animal capable of the worst behaviors imaginable. Some humans do not deserve humanity when they so willingly betray it.
Okay, that's the disconnect - you do not need to dehumanize someone to consider them an enemy. Police and militaries often do so, because it makes people easier to shoot; but it is not necessary. And the cognitive dissonance of dehumanizing their targets leads to a lot of the issues soldiers face later on. (And oh, hey - look who's become rife with fascists!)
Fascism absolutely needs stopped. It and the people supporting it are an existential threat. But the way that fascism starts out is by treating some people as less than human, as something other. And if you have to make an enemy a nonperson to beat them, then the groundwork is already laid for fascism to return with the next generation - after all, you've just shown dehumanizing people can get the results you need, right? Why not make a habit of it?
Right. No one should make a habbit of doing it. Though when a motherfucker casts away thsir own humanity, only a fool insists in trying to reestablish it before defeating them.
Addressed elsewhere downthread.
And if they dont want to be people in any of the ways that matter to me, calling them people eould be profoundly disrespectful. They aren't me abd dont have my values and treating them like they are/do would be disrespectful.
Nobodys arguing that. I just don't see why it gets brought up. Plenty of people arent human-dogs cats elephants octopi corvids cetaceans. If they're not lesser for not being human, i dont see why it's something i should be eating myself out about.
There's actually more to it than that. Plenty if dumb pieces of shit aren't fascists. In some older forms, that imo inevitably went extinct because of the nature of what it is, they didnt even need to be stupid.
Thanks, got it handled. Take your own advice and don't be super reactionary and tribalistic while reducing everything to shallow aesthetics. Try rigorous examination if the things you believe and elaboration, rather than reflexive gut reaction, or you really are not so different from them.