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submitted 10 months ago by genesis@kbin.social to c/tech@kbin.social

The French government is considering a law that would require web browsers – like Mozilla's Firefox – to block websites chosen by the government.

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[-] tuxrandom@kbin.social 16 points 10 months ago

So we're gonna have to start using Tor against censorship in the so-called 'civilised' world as well.

[-] sugar_in_your_tea@sh.itjust.works 3 points 10 months ago

Yup. My state in the US is apparently doing some nonsense with social media (think of the children!!), so I'll probably set up a VPN for my household once it goes into effect.

Why can't we just... not censor stuff? Investigate sites for criminal activity, but don't block stuff you don't like.

[-] sibachian@lemmy.ml 9 points 10 months ago

i don't see the problem. just don't make your browser available in france? there's only 3 browsers to pick from anyway, firefox, safari, or chromium-based. if everyone makes themselves unavailable in france, what is france going to do? heck, iphones only have safari. the people would be pretty quick to burn down paris (as is tradition) when the web becomes unavailable.

[-] Knusper@feddit.de 14 points 10 months ago

I strongly doubt that Google, Microsoft, Apple etc. would make their browsers unavailable in France.

[-] conciselyverbose@kbin.social 4 points 10 months ago* (last edited 10 months ago)

I could see it. I know they all bend to China, but they also know that fighting China won't change anything. If Google pulls Chrome and Apple pulls Safari, French citizens do actually have a path to be heard and get shit changed.

Equally important to them, plopping their dicks on the table against the French government and having it work might scare them out of curtailing their monopolies next time.

[-] sibachian@lemmy.ml 0 points 10 months ago

google and microsoft don't have browsers; they are offering a repacked and rebranded chromium with proprietary features. same as vivaldi, brave, etc.

there are only three modern browsers: firefox, safari, and chromium. if these three exit france, all that's left are custom made third party neutered firefox or chromium browsers repacked for france, and they would lag behind security updates.

[-] Knusper@feddit.de 3 points 10 months ago

You're right that under the hood, there's only Firefox, Safari and Chromium, but you're overestimating the influence of Chromium here.

For one, Chromium is controlled by Google. It's *technically* open-source, but Google decides what's included into it.

And secondly, Chromium already has an API for blocking webpages. All these browsers could just pre-install an extension (and hide it from users), to comply with that law.
But even if it didn't have that API, it only takes a relatively non-invasive patch to add such blocking.

Chromium is usually said to exert a strong influence, because you can't just patch things when it comes to web standards. You need to ship what's being shipped in Chrome to enjoy compatibility with all the same webpages. And usually, what's in Chromium is what's being shipped in Chrome.

[-] Gordon_Freeman@kbin.social 9 points 10 months ago

Wait, does France wants to be North Korea or something?

[-] tuxrandom@kbin.social 7 points 10 months ago

Essentially the EU does.

I'm not sure the rest of the world knows about the plans to make backdoors in encrypted communication mandatory, i. e. outlawing any form of effective encryption. They say it's against crime but I strongly believe it is mainly about total surveillance, maybe a little bit for censorship.

[-] sugar_in_your_tea@sh.itjust.works 2 points 10 months ago

The US keeps trying that, but at least so far it has failed.

[-] ripcord@kbin.social 2 points 10 months ago

There are almost certainly more backdoors than we know of publicly.

[-] sugar_in_your_tea@sh.itjust.works 2 points 10 months ago

Sure, but it's not a law on the books, that's my point. What the NSA, FBI, or CIA do is a completely separate matter.

[-] Gordon_Freeman@kbin.social 2 points 10 months ago

Sure, but it’s not a law on the books

The Patriot Act is a law

[-] sugar_in_your_tea@sh.itjust.works 0 points 10 months ago* (last edited 10 months ago)

AFAIK, the Patriot Act does not forbid closing backdoors. I know there are export restrictions on certain types of encryption (not sure if that's part of it, or a separate law), but it doesn't prevent me or a company from encrypting data at rest or in transit, or preventing law enforcement from extracting data without a warrant.

It violates a ton of individual freedoms, but requiring backdoors is not one of them. It does pressure agencies to find or create backdoors, but it doesn't obligate companies to create them AFAIK.

Unless I'm missing something, in which case please let me know. It was a big bill, and it has been largely reauthorized and somewhat amended since original passage.

[-] Gordon_Freeman@kbin.social 2 points 10 months ago

They don't need backdoors because privacy is not a right for USA citizens. If they want to check your activity the can do it in any moment without issues

[-] sugar_in_your_tea@sh.itjust.works 0 points 10 months ago* (last edited 10 months ago)

Privacy is a right in some meanings of the word, such as the fourth amendment that protects against unreasonable searches and seizures. For example, the police cannot enter your house without a warrant except for a few very specific circumstances, such as:

  • someone is likely to be actively physically harming someone, or about to physically harm someone
  • you're likely to destroy evidence (they can only bring you outside, they cannot search the house for said evidence)
  • if you invite them in, and making an emergency call is one such example (e.g. someone is having a heart attack and they come to assist medical personnel)

And this isn't just real property, but anything that could be considered private property. They cannot search your phone without a warrant or permission, they cannot search your person without at least detaining you (which requires reasonable suspicion, and I think they can only look for weapons unless they arrest you), etc.

So there absolutely is a right to privacy in the US.

That said, there are circumstances where you have no expectation of privacy, such as:

  • in a public place
  • clearly visible from a private place (e.g. you're in a driveway)

The Internet is essentially treated as a public place (as it should), so the way to maintain privacy is to encrypt your traffic end to end. However, the other end of that traffic can always choose to disclose the data they have to authorities, so someone like Meta or Microsoft could decide to hand over access to data to law enforcement willingly. If the company doesn't offer it willingly, law enforcement needs to get a warrant, just like any other search of private property, and until then, they can only sniff packets that they have access to (i.e. transfers to another service that has granted access).

When people talk about privacy in the US, they're not talking about restrictions on government, because those laws are already in place and well established with legal precedent. What they're talking about is an obligation for certain types of online services to not disclose personal information and to dispose of it at the client's request. This goes under the assumption that you still own content you have submitted, which gets into IP law and, at the current time, terms of use at each entity.

In summary, the US recognizes a negative right to privacy, but it does not recognize or enforce a positive right to privacy. So we have two solutions to solve the problem of privacy, both of which have downsides that I'm not going to get into here:

  • pass a law requiring enforcement of a positive right to privacy (something like the GDPR in Europe)
  • empower individuals to take ownership of their data so the negative right to privacy applies as expected - lemmy is a step toward that, though the copying of user submitted content is problematic (Matrix is closer with encrypted rooms)

Perhaps we need a bit of both, but to say the US has no right to privacy completely misrepresents the situation.

[-] Gordon_Freeman@kbin.social 1 points 10 months ago

For example, the police cannot enter your house without a warrant

The patriot act fixed that

The law is extremely controversial due to its authorization of indefinite detention without trial of immigrants, and due to the permission given to law enforcement to search property and records without a warrant, consent, or knowledge.

[-] sugar_in_your_tea@sh.itjust.works 2 points 10 months ago* (last edited 10 months ago)

Here's an article about it from the ACLU:

The Patriot Act increases the governments surveillance powers in four areas:

  1. Records searches. It expands the government’s ability to look at records on an individual’s activity being held by a third parties. (Section 215)
  2. Secret searches. It expands the government’s ability to search private property without notice to the owner. (Section 213)
  3. Intelligence searches. It expands a narrow exception to the Fourth Amendment that had been created for the collection of foreign intelligence information (Section 218).
  4. “Trap and trace” searches. It expands another Fourth Amendment exception for spying that collects “addressing” information about the origin and destination of communications, as opposed to the content (Section 214).

From reading the text of the law myself

  1. This must go through a judge; the requirements are lessened, but it does need to be justified (i.e. they can't just storm your house); the difference with a regular warrant is that they don't need to serve the warrant first, they can go ahead and force entry if needed
  2. Again, this requires a warrant, see #1
  3. This is just a broadening if the language (legally changes text from "the purpose" to "a significant purpose"); still problematic, but the requirement to get a warrant stays in force
  4. Yes, this broadens the type of data they can collect, but again, they still need a warrant, but this allows them to collect more than just the data they need for the immediate investigation

It's absolutely problematic, and I disagreed with it from the day I heard it introduced, but it doesn't constutute elimination of the right to privacy that exists with the first amendment. It also only applies to federal authorities, so your local and state authorities (i.e. the ones average citizens are more likely to interact with) are still bound.

I absolutely hate the Patriot Act and everything related to it (esp. all the NSA nonsense) and think we should repeal anything related to the law and instead pass more strict limitations on governments.

[-] Gordon_Freeman@kbin.social 1 points 10 months ago

This must go through a judge; the requirements are lessened, but it does need to be justified

"We think this random citizen is a spy or a terrorist". Justified. Authorities now how to abuse their powers and they do it

[-] MoogleMaestro@kbin.social 8 points 10 months ago

Firefox should just include an add-on for french-based installs that blocks those sites with explicit french instructions for how to uninstall it and a link to their petition and any public phone numbers of high profile french politicians. Effectively, they should protest the decision by making it something users can opt out of while also making sure users who don't like it complain to the people in charge of their country.

[-] CaptObvious@literature.cafe 6 points 10 months ago

This seems particularly concerning in France since Macron has already shown that if parliament won’t pass a law, he’ll just short circuit the process and enact it by executive fiat.

this post was submitted on 18 Aug 2023
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