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Open Letter to Tim Cook: Sabotaging Web Apps Is Indefensible (letter.open-web-advocacy.org)

submitted 8 months ago by libreom@lemmings.world to c/firefox@lemmy.ml

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We need to exert more pressure on apple and eu to not remove PWAs. Every signature counts, please sign and share EU has already started a preliminary investigation on this http://archive.today/2024.02.26-223134/https://www.ft.com/content/d2f7328c-5851-4f16-8f8d-93f0098b6adc

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[-] shrugal@lemm.ee 168 points 8 months ago* (last edited 8 months ago)

The company said cutting off PWAs was part of an effort to comply with the Digital Markets Act, arguing browsers other than its own Safari software would expose users to security and privacy risks that were not permitted under the law.

They are so full of shit, it's unbelievable! Are they really claiming that their own browser is THE ONLY legal browser there is?!

[-] P1r4nha@feddit.de 90 points 8 months ago

It's blatant anti-competitive behavior and anybody who cares about antitrust should be outraged about this and similar efforts. Getting legal protection for such decisions is nothing but regulatory capture.

[-] SuckMyWang@lemmy.world 13 points 8 months ago

Yes.

[-] ICastFist@programming.dev 6 points 8 months ago

Don't they already force every browser on their app store to use the safari engine because "security"?

[-] sjstulga@fosstodon.org 8 points 8 months ago

@ICastFist
Yes, however the EU enacted new regulations to put a stop to that practice, so that Apple will be required to allow other browsers on their platform.

Disabling PWAs is how Apple has chosen to retaliate against those new regulations.

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[-] fisco@lemmy.ml 89 points 8 months ago

Move away from apple products & taste the freedom..

[-] something_random_tho@lemmy.world 55 points 8 months ago* (last edited 8 months ago)

The problem is the only alternative (on phones) is handing over all my data to Google, the world’s largest ad company. I’m not sure that’s better…

Desktop is easy. Install Linux. But on phones, there’s 2 bad realistic choices.

[-] muhyb@programming.dev 25 points 8 months ago

You don't have to install Gapps though.

[-] toastal@lemmy.ml 45 points 8 months ago

If you skip GApps & install a custom ROM, chances are banking & government apps won’t work… & you see some places removing their websites forcing users into the app duopoly… which is why web apps matter.

[-] goatmeal@midwest.social 15 points 8 months ago

FWIW I've got grapheneOS without google play services on a financial profile, and all of my financial apps work including: -Two credit card apps -Bank app -Three investing apps -Two direct transfer apps

One of the credit cards apps (amex) does give a "warning" on each page that it needs play services to function but if I click Ok it actually still just works.

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[-] Rose@lemmy.world 13 points 8 months ago

Worth trying first. In my experience, almost every app works without the Google store. You can also block the internet access for any Google service or app via its settings.

[-] muhyb@programming.dev 9 points 8 months ago

And second step could be trying microG, which also usually works.

[-] GenderNeutralBro@lemmy.sdf.org 7 points 8 months ago

The best middle ground is probably GrapheneOS with sandboxed Google Play Services. At that point, most things "just work" and you can at least mitigate Google's spyware.

[-] toastal@lemmy.ml 14 points 8 months ago

Middle ground option has a weirdo author & is limited to Google’s Pixel line only (which eliminates one of the best parts about Android vs. iOS: device variety so you can find something specific to your needs)

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[-] sugar_in_your_tea@sh.itjust.works 8 points 8 months ago

And this is why I'm getting a Pixel for my next phone, it's the only phone line GrapheneOS works on, and it has a nice long support cycle.

I wish it was available on more phones though. I know there are other projects, but they don't seem as well run as GrapheneOS.

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[-] LeroyJenkins@lemmy.world 7 points 8 months ago

almost every apple user says shit like this while using Gmail, Google docs, and the Google app on their phone and blindly giving Apple their data. let's be real for a sec and not pretend most Apple users give a flying fuck that Google tracks them. if a user truly cared about privacy, they would eventually come to the conclusion that it doesn't matter Apple or Google, privacy means not giving your data to ultra mega corps. so owning an iPhone isn't adequate for privacy either. both googled Android and iOS give your data back to their respective companies. neither are good for your privacy. one day when Apple start changing their tune on privacy policies, Apple fan boys who have put their their whole lives into the apple ecosystem will realize they put all their eggs in one basket.

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[-] EmperorHenry@discuss.tchncs.de 69 points 8 months ago

It seems the solution is simple. Don't use apple products anymore. Windows or linux.

Unlike apple, there's ways to make windows private and secure and most distros of linux are mostly private and mostly secure

[-] danielbln@lemmy.world 23 points 8 months ago

Windows is the one where I need an account to install and that spies on me and throws ads in my face, that one?

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[-] ziixe@lemmy.dbzer0.com 17 points 8 months ago

Too bad when more and more people buy Apple phones for some reason, well at least where I live (which is the poorer part of central Europe), I have no idea how people can spend this kind of money for a 4 or 5 year phone, when you can buy something more capable for the same money and you will actually know it will get supported with updates for more than 2 years

Can't wait for this to be more widespread in the future to the point iMessage will be the messaging standard

[-] dangblingus@lemmy.dbzer0.com 9 points 8 months ago

It's mostly a moot point anyway. The vast majority of people who buy apple products "for some reason" will have no frame of reference or desire to learn what has changed as far as web apps are concerned.

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[-] TBi@lemmy.world 9 points 8 months ago

Same reason poor people buy overpriced designer handbags. Status symbol…

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[-] bitwolf@lemmy.one 7 points 8 months ago

What I always found odd is that many people will try Android. And at the first problem they'll switch to iPhone.

However the iPhone may demonstrate the same exact problem, among many more, yet they just deal with it anyway.

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[-] plz1@lemmy.world 10 points 8 months ago

This topic is about mobile devices, not desktop. Last I checked, Windows and Linux aren't mobile OS's.

[-] sloppy_diffuser@sh.itjust.works 16 points 8 months ago

Android is LTS kernel + Google patches. I know it's not the flavor of Linux you are talking about, but most of my apps are side loaded via F-Droid and a few from Aurora as a Play store proxy on a de-Googled ROM (GrapheneOS). There is no walled garden here.

[-] Blue_Morpho@lemmy.world 6 points 8 months ago

The most relevant part to this discussion is that Android doesn't restrict Web browsers. On Apple, all Web browsers, even Firefox, are nothing but reskins of Safari.

So their restrictions on Web apps affects all Web browsers on IOS because they only allow their own html engine.

It's absolutely insane how far we have fallen from the 90's. Back then MS got in trouble just for including a browser with the OS. Now Apple has the majority market share in the US and is allowed to not only to bundle their own browser, but doesn't allow any other browser other than their own.

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[-] Zacryon@feddit.de 7 points 8 months ago

There are mobile Linux distros.

I am looking forward to installing Ubuntu Touch on my device:
https://ubuntu-touch.io/
https://devices.ubuntu-touch.io/

There are also a bunch of others, which I haven't looked into.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linux_for_mobile_devices

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[-] morrowind@lemmy.ml 53 points 8 months ago* (last edited 8 months ago)

Firefox doesn't even support pwa, this is a weird community to post this

[-] anivia@lemmy.ml 80 points 8 months ago* (last edited 8 months ago)

Firefox for Android supports PWAs, only Desktop Firefox dropped the support

[-] shrugal@lemm.ee 8 points 8 months ago

And there is FirefoxPWA, an extension to add pretty solid PWA support on desktop.

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[-] jukey@feddit.de 45 points 8 months ago* (last edited 8 months ago)

I am using https://lichess.org/ and prefer it over the native iOS App for this free chess website. It is in fact a smoothly running PWA and even supports notifications (e.g. to remind one to move in correspondence games).

Same goes with Voyager ( https://vger.app/ ), that was used to create this post.

F* you, Apple!

[-] webjukebox@lemmy.world 12 points 8 months ago

Same goes with Voyager ( https://vger.app/ ), that was used to create this post.

Voyager is the best PWA I've ever seen.

[-] muhyb@programming.dev 15 points 8 months ago

Someone fill me in:

Can they really force this once EU opens the gates to the third-party app stores?

[-] Maestro@kbin.social 46 points 8 months ago

They will try. This is about OS-level APIs. In order for a browser to to install and run PWAs, it needs certain OS APIs for e.g. home screen installation, storage and notifications. iOS currently has these APIs but Safari severely limits what you can do with it. Now the DMA will force Apple to accept other browsers, which have no such limitations. So, Apple now wants to remove these APIs altogether and kill PWA support outright, before that portion of the DMA takes effect.

There probably will be a lawsuit and Apple will probably lose, but it will take years to resolve that. And in the mean time PWAs remain dead and the only way on the iOS home screen in paying the 30% app store cut.

[-] muhyb@programming.dev 6 points 8 months ago

I see. So it doesn't look good for now. Thanks for the insight!

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[-] Thcdenton@lemmy.world 14 points 8 months ago

Thank you Tim Apple

[-] angrymouse@lemmy.world 12 points 8 months ago

This is so frustrating because this is a big hit to browsers like firefox because Apple has such a large userbase, but this same userbase does not give a shit, and this is because they bought an apple in the first place. Frustrating

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this post was submitted on 27 Feb 2024

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