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Old man alert. Nerd alert. EXTREME snoozefest alert. You've been warned, continue reading at your own peril!

originally posted in /c/technology but was removed quickly, presumably because it's not considered a tech article or news. This is probably the better fit anyhow

For those who aren't familiar with the Brave browser, its history and controversies, or Gecko engine vs. Chromium engine (and loosely, Webkit), it's probably worth reading up on first. I'm writing this with the assumption that you know all of this stuff, because otherwise this post would be an even longer novel than it already is.

Brave recently released a paid version of their browser called Brave Origin which strips out a bunch of "features" like web3, AI, crypto, telemetry, etc.

It has a dedicated installer separate from the normal browser, except on mobile where the features can be batch disabled after verifying your license. You can also do it that way on the desktop version if you want to. Apparently a standalone android Origin app may be in the works, and the licensing system does seem to be relatively privacy preserving and not overly restrictive.

It's pretty damn expensive (except for Linux where it's free). And I must say that I feel like an outlier, because I strongly approve of this release and the direction I'm seeing the company take.

Let me state these right now:

  • Brave's controversies are real and they were completely unacceptable and they are a permanent mark on their reputation. It's no wonder many distrust them.
  • I'm fully aware that this still indirectly utilizes Google's work, and that Google creates open source projects, pumps a ton of money into them, gets a ton of contributers on board, and then starts introducing proprietary blobs which handicaps competition while effectively squeezing free work and investment out of others.
  • I love FOSS with all my heart.
  • I could add a bunch of disclaimers but I'll address them if I see something in the comments.

In a perfect world I would hate Brave's decision. In our current reality I think it's about the best move they could've made as a for-profit company outside of just creating their own browser engine. But there's a reason there are so few options for engines right now, and it's because it's really fucking complex to make one and it takes a fuckload of time, money, and resources. When somebody develops a genuine engine contender, I'll need to circle back.

Many of us use Firefox (or FF fork) with extensions. Many use ungoogled Chromium or other Chromoum forks. Obviously totally fine.

But there's a few issues with the current browser space, as I see them.

First is that the reality is, much of the web now treats Chrome (rather, the Chromium engine) as a first-class citizen. Some sites run significantly faster or more reliably on Chromium. Some sites require Chromium to fully function. For example, want to use the GrapheneOS web installer? You need a Chromium-based browser. Chromium has lots of features under the hood that the modern web utilizes. If this has never been a consideration for you, then this particular point is moot.

Second is that data harvesting and tracking is becoming wayyy more advanced than even some techies might know about - and let's be real, it's becoming pretty fucking exhausting to keep up with the growing pile of bullshit being thrown our way. It's also becoming harder and harder to stop. In both Gecko and Chromium you can, to varying degrees, install extensions, use browser forks, adjust settings, etc. to prevent much or even all of this. But the absolutely unfathomable amount of money being poured into violating your privacy needs hard, sustained, expensive work to fight in meaningful and new ways. One recent example I read about is brave implementing a new GPU anti-fingerprinting measure which is something I hadn't even considered before.

Third is that the Internet of today is just straight-up busted. Yes there are super cool projects in the works such as I2P that are trying to change that. But they're not reaching mass adoption any time soon. Most people can't even bother trying to leave for places like Lemmy and that's much less friction than I2P. I absolutely am not defeatist, and I fight this shit like the plague it is, but we also need to live our lives.

Fourth is that the way we use the internet varies. There's a lot of things we could do to make sure we're always maximally protected, but usually we find a balance. Stuff we daily drive, stuff we use when there's a specific need, stuff we're forced to use. If you're hardcore enough to do things to the max at all times then you don't even need to read this - you can browse in Mullvad Browser with (or without) a VPN or the Tor Browser, and supplement with OS and hardware privacy measures, etc... and you're likely better protected for it. But for me, and I suspect for many others, in typical daily use we want the right balance of speed, usability, privacy, and security.

Those "features" that brave bundles in are really shitty. But the mass market time and time again shows they'll put up with a lot of bullshit. And for most people you can just manually toggle the majority of these things off in the main browser for free, and it doesn't take more than a few minutes. These features, like it or not, pull in a lot more money than what most non-profits get when solely relying on donations. Hell, one of the huge things keeping Firefox propped up is their search engine deal with Google, not the donations.

Brave, like it or not, does provide some pretty compelling value in other places. First and foremost it's good to see people seeking out alternatives to Chrome for literally any reason. But they are admittedly super on-top of their Ad-blocking, anti-fingerprinting, other privacy features (like the shred tab button), and update cadence. They're the closest thing to a well-funded Chrome competitor that, unfortunately for our reality, runs on Chromium.

I get that it feels wrong to pay to remove features from your browser. But you know what, I'm sick of the micro transaction ad filled privacy invading bulls hit joke of an economy the internet has accepted at large. If it were up to me I would bring back freeware and shareware. Brave is the modern day WinRAR in an alternate universe where 7zip wasn't invented yet and the built in unzip still didn't support other formats.

I'm going to continue using my Gecko based browsers as I always have. But for when I want or need something from Chromium, I think Brave Origin is my new go-to. For me that's when I need certain hardware integration or I'm on a specific site, and chromium in my experience works very well with Android. One other thing I learned which to me is a definite plus, is that it was developed by the Ex-Ceo of Mozilla and creator of JavaScript (that was cool to learn, and that's one guy btw, not two).

For those who think this I'm suspiciously positive about Brave, I get it. I literally thought of brave as spyware until I read about Brave Origin. I think it's a sincere effort to correct course in a way that let's them operate at the level they need to maintain their product. For most people reading this who feel like trying Brave, they should just spend 5 minutes adjusting the browser settings. If you're clinically insane like me, and you actually resonated with this post, then maybe try it. And if you wanna buy it and chargeback or find a torrent or whatever, I don't really care.

I suppose this post is solely about Brave if we lived in a vacuum. But actually I think it's about sharing a mindset which I think can help the internet improve just a little bit, Brave or not.

Finally, let me end on a tangent about Alphabet Inc., mostly Google. That company is full of very smart ~~sociopaths~~ people who grabbed the internet by its collective ballsack, and while it may have felt good for a minute, they started squeezing them until you forgot what it feels like to have your balls flapping in the wind again. They made AOSP and then fucked us. They made Chromium and then fucked us. They did the heavy lifting for RCS and then fucked us. Google fucking sucks. And RIP to the word 'googol', you were robbed.

Honourable Webkit mention for Orion browser, and also their search engine Kagi which I fucking ADORE!

Tl;dr Brave Origin is alright, maybe try it, or don't.

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[–] latetolemmy@lemmy.world 1 points 26 minutes ago

I'm not reading all that. Brave rocks. Firefox gargle balls. At least Brave has the guts to innovate and don't sell out their holes to Google like Firefox.

[–] kkj@lemmy.dbzer0.com 1 points 1 hour ago

For example, want to use the GrapheneOS web installer? You need a Chromium-based browser.

This is because Firefox does not support WebUSB. It is not currently possible to make a version of the Graphene web installer that supports Firefox. Graphene doesn't get a say in the matter.

[–] douglasg14b@lemmy.world 1 points 1 hour ago* (last edited 1 hour ago)

It was removed from /c/technology because /c/technology isn't for discussing, learning about, or posting about technology. It's for posting about big tech companies, tech adjacent or non-tech news, politics, and their CEOs.

It's the Lemmy equivalent of reddits. It's pretty much a pile of crap.

[–] kestrel7_7@lemmy.world 4 points 4 hours ago (1 children)

Dude. This is just ransomware with better marketing.

If it spies on you until you pay the creator, that's ransomware.

[–] latetolemmy@lemmy.world 1 points 25 minutes ago

Keep slurping firefox turds

[–] BananaTrifleViolin@lemmy.world 34 points 9 hours ago

If youre willing to pay for a browser, donate that money to an OSS project that creates an actual private & secure browser.

It is insane to give money to a company like Brave for a browser that removes the stuff they deliberately packed in to their core browser to track people and make money.

At best what Brave are showing is that privately owned companies can't make private secure browsers because they are profit motivated. The only way privacy can happen is to remove the profit motive entirely.

[–] Feyd@programming.dev 43 points 12 hours ago (3 children)

I don't know how anyone can trust brave after the shit they pulled. They told us who they are. Believe them.

[–] latetolemmy@lemmy.world 1 points 25 minutes ago

I trust them. What are you gonna do about it? Cry and run to firefart?

[–] BrilliantBadger@piefed.ca 2 points 5 hours ago

100%. It's almost like we haven't learned a single thing from the numerous examples of how we got here.

I try to live by that same motto - when they show you who they are, believe them. Its never been wrong, and it won't be with brave. Happily won't be part of building them up.

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[–] lime@feddit.nu 33 points 14 hours ago (2 children)

interestingly, if your choice is to allow the stuff that calls home or pay to disable, that is illegal under the gdpr.

also the founder is still a bigot so i don't really want to give them money.

[–] kestrel7_7@lemmy.world 1 points 4 hours ago

Yep, we already had a word for software that spies on you until you pay the creator—“ransomware.”

[–] stinkytofuisgood@lemmy.ca 5 points 14 hours ago* (last edited 14 hours ago)

Didn't know that about the GDPR! That's pretty interesting you're right, haha. I wonder if they just don't care to officially market in the EU. From my past limited business involving the EU it was a royal pain in the ass... I'm not complaining though, it's just what you gotta comply with for the legal right to sell within it.

I'm not gonna run defense for the founder lol, you've got a reasonable position obviously.

[–] enchantedgoldapple@sopuli.xyz 5 points 11 hours ago (1 children)

Appreciate your post very much. I used to use Brave as my primary browser a few years back but Lemmy basically guilt-tripped me into ditching it for Firefox even though it was working perfectly fine for me. Although now I have naturally grown accustomed to Firefox forks for my daily use, it's nice to see that I'll have another viable alternative if I ever need a Chromium browser.

[–] stinkytofuisgood@lemmy.ca 3 points 11 hours ago* (last edited 11 hours ago)

I'm happy to hear you appreciated it, thanks.

I get it, it's hard to broach a controversial topic or a nuanced topic online sometimes without things exploding in your face.

Lemmy seems pretty decent for giving these topics a chance if you make a sincere case and you cover your bases.

Even still it's not a guarantee. Honestly the most freeing advice (that I'm gonna give and that you didn't ask for) is to speak your mind if you wanna speak your mind. Recognizing that we're all different, that many arguments boil down to opinion, and that the up votes and down votes can't affect you - it's quite freeing.

Anyhow yeah I'd say use it if you wanna use it but I strongly recommend disabling all the shit that is there just to generate money at the very least.

[–] Echo5@lemmy.world 17 points 15 hours ago (1 children)

Appreciate your post, nice to see people having level takes for something. I normally go through all my browser settings anyway during setup so a lot of the technical issues people were having I see as nonissue, UNLESS it gets added in during an update (where I wouldn’t notice) and is opt-out, not opt-in. It’s a good recommend for new users who aren’t super tech savvy and just need a plug and play.

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[–] Zerush@lemmy.ml 5 points 12 hours ago* (last edited 4 hours ago) (2 children)

I'm happy with Vivaldi since over 10 Years and Zen as second, both European Browsers (Norway and Spain) which don't sell my data and my soul. Ethics respect the user and transparency are very important for me and Brave don't offer it, but shady business models. Thanks

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[–] yestalgia@lemmy.world 4 points 12 hours ago (2 children)

I was using a Gecko based browser on GrapheneOS until I recently learned that all of the frequent stuttering when scrolling that I was tolerating for months was related to the browser being anything besides chromium based!

So I'm back on Brave for my main browser across platforms even though I was wanting to support the open web with a Gecko browser.

[–] RodgeGrabTheCat@lemmy.ca 3 points 5 hours ago

Ironfox on my GOS takes about 1-2 minutes to load a webpage. Even with a fresh install and no mods done to UBO. That's longer than Tor browser takes to load the same page. No joke, I timed several pages with a stopwatch.

Until Ironfox gets their stuff together, I'll be using Brave.

[–] stinkytofuisgood@lemmy.ca 2 points 11 hours ago (1 children)

That was quite literally my exact experience, like 100% exact.

So what I'm hoping at least is that they will release an Origin build for Android so we can truly have the stuff removed rather than just disabled.

It's really kind of a shame, I tried so hard with Ironfox and eventually I noticed I just stopped opening it anymore, and that's when I had to make a choice.

[–] JamesBoeing737MAX@sopuli.xyz 1 points 1 hour ago

Try Titanium browser - vanadium with extensions (compatible with UB origin lite).

I use it when some pages don't work on Waterfox on my underpowered redmi. It's tolerable.

[–] W3dd1e@lemmy.zip 10 points 15 hours ago (1 children)

Brave owns an ad network and that’s all I need to know to never use any of their products.

There are other comparable options that have better companies behind them.

Kagi’s Orion has not given me a reason to hate them except that it isn’t open source. They don’t sell your data and they don’t serve ads.

I can use uBlock on Orion,

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[–] nkk@programming.dev 8 points 15 hours ago* (last edited 1 hour ago) (3 children)

Chromium-based browsers that are better than Brave:

Desktop - Helium

Android (GrapheneOS) - Vanadium

Android (Not GrapheneOS) - Titanium

[–] sudoer777@lemmy.ml 2 points 11 hours ago* (last edited 11 hours ago) (1 children)

I read on the GrapheneOS forums that Cromite lags behind on updates and that Titanium is better

[–] nkk@programming.dev 1 points 1 hour ago

Never heard of Titanium, thanks!

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[–] theherk@lemmy.world 6 points 14 hours ago (1 children)

I have tinkered with Orion. It has a lot of promise, but it is still a bit buggy. I’m all Firefox since before it was Firefox, but I respect your assessment. I’m also looking forward to Ladybird, even though it also has its fair share of controversy.

Recent Firefox has been really good to me. Vertical tabs and new design are excellent; though I don’t seem to be with the crowd in that.

One small feedback that is meant less as a correction and more in case people are curious. Chromium isn’t an engine, it is an open source browser. The Gecko / WebKit equivalent here is Blink.

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[–] steelplatedmech@piefed.ca 2 points 11 hours ago (2 children)

I don't have a problem with Origin, since Firefox stripped of telemetry, ai, and sponsorships is something I'd be happy to pay a one time fee for even if I can disable it.

Having everything stripped from the installer by default from the official source is nice, and lot of projects don't get funding from most users. So offering something like this seems fine with me.

[–] begrudgedcarfolk@sh.itjust.works 7 points 11 hours ago (2 children)

You don't have to pay for any of that, it's free with LibreWolf on desktop and IronFox on Android.

[–] RodgeGrabTheCat@lemmy.ca 2 points 5 hours ago (1 children)

I use LibreWolf on desktop but Ironfox is far too slow on GrapheneOS.

[–] begrudgedcarfolk@sh.itjust.works 2 points 3 hours ago (2 children)

I just picked up a used Pixel and I've has no issues with IronFox, my partner uses it too. Did you forget to install the adblocker? Maybe enough time has passed since you last used it and it's gotten better since then?

[–] RodgeGrabTheCat@lemmy.ca 1 points 2 hours ago

UBO was installed. Last time I tried Ironfox was perhaps two weeks ago.

[–] JamesBoeing737MAX@sopuli.xyz 1 points 2 hours ago

It is extremely laggy. But I have a 2017 redmi 4x with a SDM 435 and 4GB of ram (also lags on 690), so it's probably fine on anything with a SDM 855+.

If I remember, I might post an update on how it works on a SDM 8 elite.

[–] steelplatedmech@piefed.ca 2 points 7 hours ago (1 children)

Still would be nice to have an option straight from Firefox available.

I agrree, it would, but I doubt that will ever happen while Google pays them exorbitant amount of money to be the default web browser.

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[–] JoMiran@lemmy.ml 5 points 15 hours ago* (last edited 15 hours ago) (2 children)

I am a Firefox & forks diehard, but I need a Chromium/Webkit/Whatever based browser for a lot of corporate shit I have to access. So, I bit the bullet and bought Brave Origin. It doesn't suck. I wouldn't pick it as my main, but it's fine. Much better option than Chrome and Edge, that's for certain.

[–] im_fine_sandy@nord.pub 3 points 11 hours ago (1 children)
[–] JoMiran@lemmy.ml 3 points 7 hours ago

First thing I tried. I often get a message that it isn't supported.

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[–] eldyaitch@lemmy.zip 5 points 15 hours ago* (last edited 15 hours ago) (2 children)

Sad the internet trolls need so many disclaimers. For example:

  • I don’t really like tofu.

I appreciate your post because I switched to Brave maybe 5+ years ago and have been very pleased. I knew of Brave origin, but I had no idea it was free for Linux?! Super good news for me then. The first thing I do on a fresh Brave install is disable all of it’s creature comforts and crypto. By the time I’m done tweaking every setting, it’s as if my browser has short-term memory loss just the way I like it. I don’t need it to remember. I have extensions and bookmarks for things I want to keep track of. For this, Brave has allowed me to say “No” in all the ways other browsers weren’t.

[–] RichardNixos@lemmy.ml 1 points 10 hours ago
  • I don’t really like tofu.

What's wrong with Trust On First Use?

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[–] SocialistVibes01@lemmy.ml -1 points 8 hours ago* (last edited 8 hours ago) (1 children)

Brave is shitty defaults pulled by shitty people. It's simple. I'll never understand the appeal between Zoomers and Alphas. Lack of maturity, maybe? Are they also shitty people? Beats me.

[–] RodgeGrabTheCat@lemmy.ca 2 points 5 hours ago (1 children)

Your bigotry towards Zoomers and Alphas is pretty shitty.

[–] SocialistVibes01@lemmy.ml 1 points 2 hours ago (1 children)

Whoa first bigot attracted. Like those idiots going on about reverse racism.

[–] stinkytofuisgood@lemmy.ca 1 points 17 minutes ago* (last edited 16 minutes ago)

Hey man, I appreciate the input but firstly I don't see how the generation of people applies in this case in any meaningful way.

I can understand being frustrated with shitty aspects of the hyper-capitalistic society many of us live in and predatory nature of the modern free-market. But if you wanna make a difference please try expressing it in a way that encourages discussion and unity, rather than dissuade it.

Per your username, I'm all for socialist vibes. My wish is more of a transition into a true socialist democracy, which isn't 'pure' socialism per se, but we're on the same team. In fact, the working class is on the same team. But man, you're not giving off socialist vibes imo, and that's the opposite effect that your username implies.

Just my thoughts.

[–] sudoer777@lemmy.ml 1 points 11 hours ago (1 children)

With Brave I need an ad/paywall blocker for the browser itself

[–] stinkytofuisgood@lemmy.ca 1 points 11 hours ago

Dude I get it, I live too much of my life analyzing network traffic, blocking garbage in pi-hole. If I decide to trust, I still need to verify. Not trusting Brave, especially in its default config, is absolutely justified.

[–] artyom@piefed.social 3 points 14 hours ago (2 children)

Brave is not perfect but it does objectively have some privacy features that other browsers simply don't. Like syncing devices with a passphrase (no account), and it's also the only browser I'm aware of that has and continues to develop browser fingerprinting protections.

[–] im_fine_sandy@nord.pub 1 points 11 hours ago (1 children)

Doesn't Firefox have fingerprinting protections which are disabled by default? LibreWolf enables them by default.

[–] artyom@piefed.social 1 points 2 hours ago

A lot of them claim this but I'm yet to see it. Most "fingerprinting protections" involve just having everyone using the same stats and trying to blend in. Brave does this by randomization instead, which is far more effective. They also just released GPU randomization. Orion claims to this day that fingerprinting resistance is impossible, which is preposterous because Brave is doing it today.

https://brave.com/privacy-updates/38-webgl-webgpu-fingerprinting-protections/

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