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"far right"? Bro, that's just Israel. Don't need the prefix.
Ehhh. Even in Israel's case there's some that are appalled by everything that's going on, including this. Not many, like 15%, but they're there. Any time you get a group that big there's going to be dissenters. There's a far right, a mid-right and some centre-right moderates. No one left of that would want to live there in the first place.
15%? My friend, that's the Palestinian population in Israel. That's literally the aligned Arab coalition party and the far left Jewish party with communist ideologies who want to break the colonial state.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joint_List
The Palestinians want to live there because it's their ancestral home, the Jewish Israelis who are communist/far left want to either leave (not easy to do) or dissolve the current state and basically renounce their citizenship. To lump them in as the 15% population of Israelis that are dissenters is not very accurate.
Israel is either a small population of far left and therefore don't really identify with the state or nationality, and everyone else is right wing. Which is why it's redundant to say "far right Israeli".
I'm not entirely disagreeing with you, we'll likely never have accurate data on how many remaining Jewish Israelis actually dissent, and it may well be that 15% is almost totally the Palestinian Israelis. I'm well aware almost everyone even vaguely left of centre has either left the country or is trying to (I will admit I have some out-sized sympathy for those who can't), and they were never a major faction to begin with, because most Jews with progressive or socialist sympathies never wanted to be associated with the project in the first place. I'm just saying it's not untrue that there is still a spectrum within the remaining right wing there. "Far right", is still an accurate description of the most extreme subset.
I mean, listen, there's always a spectrum. But my definition of "far right" is anyone advocating for a colonial ethnocentric state. And that's israelis.
A liberal Zionist is still left of far right Likud, but the majority of the colonial project was constructed and given cover by liberal Zionism. And that's far right.
A far-right activist with connections to National Security Minister Itamar Ben Gvir also urged protesters to identify the filmmakers if they saw them in public.
"They won't sit in any restaurant or any place," Ben Gvir's close ally said, referring to Szor and Abraham.
I believe it because a lot of (most?) Israelis are fucking lunatics, but not naming the person discredits the work, imo. Name and shame. Give these people no place to go when boomers are dead and policy in the USA (and Europe) changes and recognizes their crimes. Hold them accountable.
Call me crazy, but calling for hanging Jewish people for speaking to the world about an atrocity sounds kind of... what's the word I'm looking for... ah, well, you know what I mean.
benjamin netanyahu is trying to get thier israeli citizenships revoked.
Well, I mean, Israel is the Fourth Reich, so it cant really be that surprising.
Just wait until they start manufacturing/importing large quantities of "pesticide"
Exactly
I can't believe they're even still in Israel, they'll be killed. These "people" are radicalized and devoid of empathy and compassion. Nothing scarier than that. Respect for them staying in Israel but they should leave like right now.
They won't, what they did is pretty mild, they revealed nothing we didn't already know, they aren't allowing their film to be shared freely to support a claimed goal of spreading awareness, and they're protecting the identity of the soldiers confessing to committing these crimes, which is the only thing that would benefit Palestine.
Without actual identification, this is as useful as someone who hired actors and gave them scripts. Completely useless.
This sort of awareness activism doesn't help a single Palestinian, but the Oscar these Israelis will get will surely boost their career.
If they felt in danger they would leave Israel, they're world famous and rich, they can literally go almost anywhere. And release the identities of the soldiers. They don't, because at the end of the day they enjoy living on stolen occupied land and don't want anything to meaningfully change.
What a sick society
"Far-right isrealis"
But you repeat yourself
Nah, there's plenty Israelis fighting for Palestine, and against their government. If it was "far-right Zionists", then I'd agree
There's not plenty, there's few. It's a sick supremacist society.
The government is fascistic. The people in the government, and those who support it, are fascists. "Society", means all the people together, just like in the above comment, "Israelis" are all the citizens.
"All the citizens of a place" is not a group you can just bunch up, that's just racism.
There isn't actually anything connecting them, apart from birthplace.
Bunch up groups with real stuff they have in common: Beliefs (Zionism in this case), or money (rich people and their suck ups), or real societal role (cops, military).
Those things are real. "Nationality" (one step removed from "race") is not real. Don't fall for the intellectual trap, that any of that matters as to which people are "good" or "bad
"Israelis" are all the citizens
To be an Israeli "citizen" is (obviously I'm not speaking of children) to knowingly live on occupied land built on destroyed villages because the society believes you are superior to the natives you hold on literal ghettos and concentration camps while slowly exterminating them.
If you're not opposed to what your "fascist government" is doing, being a citizen doesn't absolve you. The government as a concept is not responsible, it's people that enable it.
The German society was correctly blamed for Nazism, not just Adolf and friends. Israeli society would need to a similar dezionification.
The majority of them agree with the government, the majority of people protesting Netanyahu are upset he didn't do enough. It's a supremacist society of child killers, they set up camping chairs and eat popcorn while watching bombs fall on children, they spit on us and attack non Jews openly, and their military defends them from consequences. It's a society that needs fixing, not just a government.
There isn't actually anything connecting them, apart from birthplace.
Actually, and I can't believe my fucking eyes and having to write this... In this case, that is literally not the thing connecting them. The majority of Israeli citizens are not born in Palestine, the majority hold at least one other citizenship and what connects them is their belief that their ethno-religious group was promised the land of Palestine and they must subjugate the natives and take it from them.
They are racist. To be a Zionist is racist. To exist and partake of a society built on killing and stealing from Palestinians is racist. Pointing it out is not.
Bunch up groups with real stuff they have in common: Beliefs (Zionism...
Oh you're doing the technically correct thing, even though you brought up citizens and I spoke only of society.
Israeli society, by definition, are Zionists. That is what I'm bunching them up with, and you're twisting what I said to call me racist against Zionists.
I repeat what I said, it's a sick supremacist society. I never brought up nationality and your attempt to argue that society means nationality is idiotic.
For the record, you're right after all, I was assuming things about Israel (that it's a country with more than one generation of people having lived there lol) that are apparently untrue.
What you said about them all having more than one citizenship, is really interesting and telling of the reality there.
This is the comment of the interaction I realized how that place just isn't a normal country.
Society being roughly the same thing with nationality, is just the truth of other, poorer places. The privilege to "be able to leave", is not universal, and also currently under attack btw, which is why I was wrongly trying to extend grace to such people over there.
Israel is a fake country though, apparently (not snark, I mean it word for word), and I was extending grace to a 100 year-old settler-colonial rich-guy sadism-retreat.
You are a good person who took criticism that contained anger and looked it up instead of blindly repeating what you've previously heard just to win an argument. I was not the most graceful, but you considered what I'm saying instead of how I said it.
I've tagged you as an actual ally. I hope we can fight for a better future together.
Those more extreme than Netanyahu are at least still a minority, albeit empowered by their position in the coalition. The majority of the protests against Netanyahu come from the same kind of centrists as the Americans you saw protesting Trump in 2017, who objected to the fascist boomerang coming around to hit them but wouldn't have raised nearly as much of a fuss about deportations and overseas assassination campaigns if Hillary Clinton had been the one behind them.
I think it's all too easy to imagine a mass of undifferentiated monsters rather than confronting the connection between unfortunately familiar patterns of political engagement and the slaughter they cause, just because that connection is more obvious closer to the blade of the imperialist knife. Plenty of militaristic genocide deniers are just as much liberal progressives as their counterparts in western countries until the switch flips back to their military brainwashing and they start talking about security guarantees and buffer zones.
Maybe I'm naive for believing that people can change, but I don't think that everyone who's been sold on the lie that forever war is the only way for them to be safe is as committed to violence as the backyard terrorists with lawn chairs.
like 15%, but they’re there. Any time you get a group that big there’s going to be dissenters. There’s a far right, a mid-right and some centre-right moderates. No one left of that would want to live there in the first place. There's like a slim 15% that aren't fully supporting what's going on there. Remember, the vast majority of Jews, don't live in Israel. The few who do are a self-selected group who tend toward ethno-nationalism and/or religious nationalism. It's not a race thing, it's not "the Jews," and it's actually not unreasonable to be very suspect of Israeli nationals, though it's very wrong to associate diaspora Jews with that perspective. Wealthy Zionists in other countries definitely are part of it, but they're more of a loud and influential minority outside Israel. It's actually a far cry from disparaging all Jews, because again, most Jewish people, aren't Israeli and have either left as soon as they could, our never were in the first place, and Israel the state is far from representative of the whole ethnic/religious group as a whole.
I mean, I fully agree with what you're saying, as long as this sentence is true:
"Israelites who desire to leave Israel, can do so".
Is it? I come from a poorer country, where "leaving" is something many people want to do, but not so many can. It takes a lot of money and/or financial security to leave your homeland, in our case, and that includes the wealthier part of European countries, moving to the less wealthy ones. Same currency, no passport required, and it's still difficult.
Maybe Israel is different, being a younger, richer, more artificially developed country (mostly non-natives). I have no idea.
I mean it literally, when I say this:
Maybe this specific country(Israel), due to historical and material reasons, functions differently than other countries, and the identity of "Israeli" shouldn't get the same treatment as other national identities.
As a thought, all that sounds to me "too convenient to be true", but boy, do you find me lacking in historical context.
You're right, and there are indeed some left-leaning Israelis that live there, have a hard time getting out, and oppose the majority. There is, however, a very supportive pipeline out for most in that most have family elsewhere that will sponsor their emigration and extensive diaspora communities to support them. The percentage of left leaning Israelis that remain Israeli is very small because it's relatively easy for them to leave compared to many countries, and in recent history they've enjoyed relative freedom of movement in wealthy western countries. It's a unique situation. Meanwhile there's a number of programs within Israel and in other countries to help encourage more nationalist-minded Jewish people from around the world to resettle in Israel.
The part that's hard for some people to wrap there head around is that there's actually institutional infrastructure to aid inward migration of right wingers and outward migration of everyone else, so you kind of have a distilled right-wing oriented culture within the country. It's not a normal circumstance that you would find in most places where there's a high level of social and institutional friction that keeps the ratio more balanced. The ones stuck are the ones with so little social and financial means, they're politically too marginal to matter. I'm definitely sympathetic to those poor souls, but numerically, politically, and culturally too insignificant to count. There's a better than 90% chance if you meet an Israeli, they're proud of what their government is doing. That by no means reflects the sentiment of Jews worldwide
I think something like 80% of the Israeli public thinks they're not going hard enough in Gaza
Aggregate public opinion, both the real, and especially through bullshit polls during authoritarian (read: dangerous) times, is at the whims of the government.
If the government bombards people with an idea, people without a robust opinion, will believe it.
Hate the people who act. The government, and the part of the public that is taking real Zionist action, participating in the ideology.
As I said in the other comment, the idea of "Israelis" is not real enough to justify hating the group. Putting all of them in the same basket is racism, because many of them (perhaps 20%, doesn't change my argument), have neither the desire nor the power to contribute to the genocide, and part of those is fighting against.
Name the groups you hate by their real characteristic (violent fascists), because hating "people of a nation" is just being racist, and missing what the actual danger is.
You need to consider who made that study, who they interviewed for it and why.
Assuming those numbers are correct, 1 in 5 Israelis aren’t real?
You think 1 in 5 people not in favour of finishing the genocide is "plenty"?
I’m not quibbling over the definition of “plenty” (a word I did not say) when people are arguing that being born in Israel makes you far right, on a thread about two Israelis being threatened with murder for exposing the genocide to an international audience. Do we really need to have a ‘where you are born is not a moral statement’ discussion?
You are arguing against someone who said 80% of Israelis want to go further, in response to someone saying "plenty" of Israelis weren't right wing. You trying to strip out the context and simplify things to "individual Israelis might be ok" is pointless blathering in a more focused conversation that is less "where you are born" and more "are you in favour of ethnic cleansing".
Maybe not pointless. Quite useful to a certain viewpoint.
pointless blathering in a more focused conversation that is less "where you are born" and more "are you in favour of ethnic cleansing".
So that's a yes, we do need to have the 'where you are born is not a moral statement' discussion? Because 'Israeli' is a nationality, not a political ideology. You are describing a political ideology while ascribing it to everyone born there--which includes people who are ethnically Palestinian--on a post about two Israelis doing more for Palestinians than everyone in this thread put together. You seriously don't see the ridiculousness in that?
Electoral history suggests “plenty” is not the word
Ah Israel, such a lovely place to visit.. I mean send my tax dollars to.
If you ask nicely israelis will take a picture of your tax money in their hands taken with historic Israeli places in the background. So it is like you're getting a vacation. I mean, its a vacation to israel, but beggars cant be choosers. And we're the beggars in this scenario.
How about we all just use some level of logic, become atheist, and solve 90% of the Earths problems overnight.
I mean, I wish, but realistically it wouldn’t help as much as we hope. Look at how the tech-obsessed people claim that tech will magically solve all problems if we just accept its presence in our lives, how fans obsessing over their favorite actor/musician/sports-team fight in the streets, how people following ‘gurus’ are fine with poisoning ‘those others’ or drinking the flavor-aid out of devotion.
There’s just a certain percentage of the population that needs some kind of ‘higher power’ to obsess over, and if they don’t get it from religion they just go find other ways.
Israel can't even keep Jews safe from each other.
Democrats should propose that the filmmakers be offered refugee status in the US. This would not only provide publicity for the film but win support from those who disapprove of Israel's actions in Gaza.
Soooo more bullshit posturing and preferential treatment for Israelis while they deny visas for Palestinians and sign off on weapons shipments to Israel?
Edit: ah fuck me! Another shit take from Panthera! Gotta always look at the username
To the contrary, my proposal would help Palestinians. It would win votes for Democrats, a party more favorable to the plight of Palestinians. It would also provide publicity for the film which would enable Americans to see Israeli actions in Gaza.
The Semites are the anti-Semites! Get them!