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Do you prefer XMPP or Matrix, or are you using something else entirely?

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[–] who@feddit.org 1 points 37 minutes ago* (last edited 7 minutes ago)

My gaming groups use Matrix, mainly for its stronger ecosystem and better long-term outlook. Despite developing slowly and not yet doing everything we want, Matrix is consistently improving and growing to serve more and more use cases. We're willing to tolerate some inconveniences for now, in exchange for having the contact networks we build today continue to grow for decades to come. We use Mumble for voice chat, because it's great, but might switch to MatrixRTC in the future (when Element Call leaves beta and becomes available in more Matrix clients).

I wrote up a few tips a few days ago for Discord users considering Matrix.

If chat for a small gaming group was all I needed, I might choose XMPP. It's arguably easier to administer than Matrix once you learn about all the XEPs required for comparable features (ease of admin is relevant to me because I self-host) and I would be able to guide a small group in client choices and setup. But I have found XMPP's ecosystem to be a poor fit for large and diverse contact networks.

[–] ProdigalFrog@slrpnk.net 5 points 6 hours ago* (last edited 6 hours ago) (2 children)

I've personally not had terribly good experiences with Matrix. I found it to be slow at times, but more annoyingly, it would very consistently not un-encrypt messages both for me and the people I was talking to, requiring both parties to regularly need to re-send messages until they finally unencrypted properly. This made it a real ball-ache to use, as you could send a message, and then hours later have someone else say they can't read it. I'm also not a fan of how much Metadata it spreads around.

XMPP on the other hand has always been snappy and fast, and I much prefer the clients available for it. It's currently the most promising federated option, IMHO, with Movim being the most promising client as a Discord replacement.

It's still missing some essential Discord-like features, such as groups of rooms in a server and drop-in voice rooms, but both features are being actively worked on, and a funding campaign was started to accelerate development.

But what it can do already is:

  • Excellent text chats, including with very good optional encryption
  • Group voice/video calls with screensharing (must use a chromium based browser to screenshare an app's audio)
  • A neat integrated blogging feature for communities & individuals
  • a built-in paint program to draw stuff to input into the chat
  • Full working and proven federation thanks to the XMPP back-end
[–] who@feddit.org 1 points 1 hour ago* (last edited 1 hour ago) (1 children)

I found it to be slow at times, but more annoyingly,

Slow at what, exactly? If you mean slow at delivering messages, it suggests that you were using the world's largest public server, which sometimes gets overloaded enough to be slow. In that case, your criticism is not of Matrix, but of a particular server. To compare apples to apples, you would have to either pick a different server or compare the largest one with a similarly loaded XMPP server.

it would very consistently not un-encrypt messages both for me and the people I was talking to,

When was that? Which clients were in use? This is relevant because unable-to-decrypt errors were fairly common until roughly mid-to-late last year. They put a lot of work into finding and addressing the causes, and I haven't seen a single one in more than a few months. I suspect the experience you're describing here is either out of date, or you're using clients that haven't applied the fixes yet.

I also notice from your recent Lemmy posts that you are evangelizing Movim pretty hard lately. There's nothing inherently wrong with that, but praising XMPP without mentioning its drawbacks, while spreading outdated and vague criticism of other options, is a somewhat misleading way to do it... and a disservice to the community.

[–] ProdigalFrog@slrpnk.net 1 points 1 hour ago* (last edited 1 hour ago) (1 children)

I also notice from your recent Lemmy posts that you are evangelizing Movim pretty hard lately.

I am, mainly due to the Discord situation which has resulted in much more interest in alternative platforms. After everything dies down and everyone is settled in their new platform, I'll likely be posting about it a bit less.

but praising XMPP without mentioning its drawbacks

I am mentioning its drawbacks; it does not have two very important Discord features as of now, which I explicitly point out. I also pointed out that screen sharing audio only works with Chromium browsers, which is another downside (I only use Firefox myself).

while spreading outdated and vague criticism of other options

You yourself said that the issues I had were only fixed a few months ago. I had been using it in the period you mention the problem existing in, but stopped using it due to those issues. I think it's a little unreasonable to expect me to regularly re-try every other platform before relating my past experiences with it (a few months is not that long ago). I'm glad to hear that problem has been finally resolved for them. As it's not relevant anymore, I won't mention it when relaying my experience with it in the future.

[–] who@feddit.org 1 points 54 minutes ago

You yourself said that the issues I had were only fixed a few months ago.

No, I said I haven't seen a single one of those errors in more than a few months. I haven't been tracking the timeline, but I'm pretty sure the fixes were being put in place closer to a year ago.

I think it’s a little unreasonable to expect me to regularly re-try every other platform before relating my past experiences with it

When we choose to publish old experiences instead of gathering updated information first, it's important to also state when those experiences were, so readers can take it into account. Things are constantly changing in this field. (Mostly for the better, I think.)

In any case, thanks for clarifying, and thanks in advance for adjusting your spiel now that you've been made aware that your information was out of date.

[–] RelativityRanger@lemmy.ca -4 points 6 hours ago* (last edited 6 hours ago) (1 children)
[–] mononoke@lemmy.sdf.org 1 points 5 hours ago

What misinformation is in this post?

[–] martini1992@lemmy.ml 6 points 8 hours ago (2 children)

Why has IRC not been mentioned? The basics of Discords UX is based on it after all.

[–] ProdigalFrog@slrpnk.net 4 points 7 hours ago* (last edited 5 hours ago)

I suspect many Discord refugees will be looking for an all-in-one app that can do both solid text chat with discord-style servers and many rooms/spaces in them, as well as the ability to seamlessly have voice/video calls with groups of friends, as well as screenshare applications to watch movies together or stream games while chatting.

IRC is only capable of the text chat part, and would require an additional video conferencing app with a separate account to fulfill the video call part, which most would find off-putting after having it all-in-one for over a decade.

[–] pedz@lemmy.ca 2 points 7 hours ago

And IRC now has web clients that can display inline images, upload them on a channel, preview URLs, push notifications, keep history, and more.

I use The Lounge but there is also Convos and a few others.

[–] SleveMcDichael@programming.dev 12 points 10 hours ago* (last edited 9 hours ago) (10 children)

From my digging on alternatives the main contenders are (in no particular order)

  • Stoat
    • Essentially 1:1 on discords format
    • UK based, so its future there is uncertain
    • Infrastructure is lacking, was crippled by the initial influx after discord's announcement.
    • Missing some minor UI and UX features, feels unpolished.
  • Spacebar
    • Reverse engineered discord
    • Greatest potential, IMO, but as of a few days ago all it has is potential.
    • lacks significant client development, relying on an external client named Fermi, which feels quite amateurish.
  • XMPP
    • Highly mature, looks very promising, but lacks any kind of guild/nested channel grouping support which makes it unsuitable for my group, so I didn't look too deep at it.
  • Matrix
    • IMO the most likely discord successor.
    • Minor functional hiccups, that vary from client to client
    • Of the clients I tested, Cinny is the most discord like, but I hear commet is closer.
    • Nested spaces provides the minimum format equivalence.
  • Fluxer
    • Slightly sus vibes
    • Lacks self hosting instructions
    • Media is non-permanent, which is I guess fair to keep infra costs down, but its unsuitable for my groups media usage habits.
    • Looks promising, but I've not actually tried it given the lack of self hosting instructions.

One thing that's wormed its way onto the to do list that haunts the back of my mind, is I'd like to see if I could abuse the matrix or XMPP protocols to get some of the nicer discord-like features lime invite links, server side channel ordering, and space membership over channel membership. But that's unlikely to happen any time soon.

EDIT: Forgot Fluxer. Added.

[–] who@feddit.org 1 points 1 hour ago* (last edited 24 minutes ago)

One thing that’s wormed its way onto the to do list that haunts the back of my mind, is I’d like to see if I could abuse the matrix or XMPP protocols to get some of the nicer discord-like features lime invite links

I think I've seen invite links being proposed for Matrix, but I don't remember the status of that idea, and can't find a relevant MSC at the moment.

I wonder if this would be helpful for now:

https://github.com/dfuchss/matrix-joinlink

[–] ProdigalFrog@slrpnk.net 4 points 7 hours ago* (last edited 7 hours ago)
  • XMPP

Highly mature, looks very promising, but lacks any kind of guild/nested channel grouping support which makes it unsuitable for my group, so I didn’t look too deep at it.

No XMPP clients currently have that feature, but the Movim client is actively working on implementing it, and it should be ready in a few weeks. They recently launched a modest funding campaign to accelerate development.

[–] hikaru755@lemmy.world 2 points 8 hours ago (1 children)
  • Fluxer
    • Slightly sus vibes

Can you elaborate on this part?

[–] bagelberger@lemmy.world 10 points 7 hours ago

a chat app that has more feature parity with Discord than any other project, yet:

  • was supposedly built over the course of five years but commit history was squashed a couple months ago so there's no way to verify
  • was built entirely by one 22yo who hasn't yet graduated university
  • has confirmed LLM usage
  • already has a monetization plan very similar to Discord and has raised 300k in one-time funding on hype alone

all this to say, it's still an incredibly impressive piece of software, but the sus vibes are warranted

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[–] ArcaneSlime@lemmy.dbzer0.com 4 points 8 hours ago

Xmpp. Looks less polished, but works better, and isn't mostly controlled by the ex-Amdocs Matrix Foundation.

[–] warmaster@lemmy.world 2 points 7 hours ago (2 children)

Fluxer is a better Discord alternative than Matrix and XMPP.

That said, XMPP is more private. Matrix is worse than everything else.

[–] sakuraba@lemmy.ml 1 points 4 hours ago

fluxer can be a better alternative, but right now is isn't

i can barely use it due to server issues and selfhosting is not an option at the moment

not trying to dismiss fluxer, just making it clear to anyone trying to use it in its current state

[–] ProdigalFrog@slrpnk.net 3 points 6 hours ago* (last edited 5 hours ago) (1 children)

Fluxer, while promising, is currently too buggy for people to switch to, and still has an unproven back-end that needs to show it can scale up. I am hopeful for it though, as it uses GPL, and the dev plans to implement federation and encryption at some point.

XMPP is rapidly gaining Discord-like features thanks to the Movim client, but it too is not yet a 1:1 replacement. It is however pretty stable, and could be used while user's wait for those additional features.

[–] marcie@lemmy.ml 1 points 6 hours ago (2 children)

is movim even encrypted from what i can tell it isnt

[–] mononoke@lemmy.sdf.org 3 points 6 hours ago (1 children)

Movim has supported OMEMO since 2021 from the looks of it.

[–] marcie@lemmy.ml 2 points 5 hours ago (2 children)
[–] mononoke@lemmy.sdf.org 3 points 5 hours ago* (last edited 5 hours ago) (1 children)

A lot of clients don't have encryption enabled by default since they've been around for quite a long time, before this was a primary consideration in web communication standards. In these cases, like with Gajim, it is a simple toggle in the client options. I don't use it but I assume Movim is similar.

[–] ProdigalFrog@slrpnk.net 2 points 4 hours ago

with Gajim, it is a simple toggle in the client options. I don’t use it but I assume Movim is similar.

Can confirm, it's just a toggle, and then you can click a padlock icon in any chat to send any new messages as encrypted.

[–] sakuraba@lemmy.ml 2 points 5 hours ago (1 children)

can't be, you need to setup your enc keys beforehand

[–] marcie@lemmy.ml 1 points 4 hours ago* (last edited 4 hours ago) (1 children)

yeah i hope matrix just fixes things up to make the experience smoother. seems to be taking them forever. it not being on by default is a nonstarter im not going to explain to my non tech friends how to encrypt their messages. this is basically the only real reason why signal is so great, its easy and preset out of the box. simplex seems good too and is making more progress than matrix it seems, idk how many users it can have in one chat though

[–] sakuraba@lemmy.ml 1 points 4 hours ago* (last edited 4 hours ago)

signal is similar, the moment your friend loses their signal enc key and try to login again they will lose their chat history (same as matrix)

it's a limitation due to the nature of E2EE

in my case while I care for E2EE, it is not enough to trust signal servers with my metadata and its the same for matrix. XMPP looks like a good balance between owning the server, controlling how to federate and choosing what to encrypt

[–] ProdigalFrog@slrpnk.net 3 points 6 hours ago (1 children)

It is. It offers OMEMO encryption of both chats and video/audio calls. It's based on Signal's encryption, but modified to work with a federated/decentralized model.

[–] marcie@lemmy.ml 1 points 6 hours ago (1 children)

does it have an android app, or is it all web based

[–] mononoke@lemmy.sdf.org 2 points 6 hours ago

Conversations is my preferred Android client.

[–] poVoq@slrpnk.net 14 points 11 hours ago* (last edited 11 hours ago)

The problem is that "Discord" means something else for almost anyone and there is no alternative that 100% covers all the usecases.

For many public chats, IRC with a modern server and client is perfectly suitable, and for my private gaming sessions Mumble is as voice chat is doing fine even though friends are complaining that they can't just use it in a browser.

For general IM stuff XMPP is best, but I guess few people use Discord for that. Matrix is in general slow and clunky, no real point of using that except if you are forced to because some very specific FOSS projects insist on using it.

[–] soldan@chachara.club 11 points 12 hours ago (1 children)

I prefered xmpp. But either xmpp or matrix arent discord alternatives

[–] Ulrich@feddit.org 6 points 10 hours ago (2 children)
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[–] Arcanoloth@lemmy.ml 8 points 11 hours ago (1 children)

IMHO XMPP is far more architecturally sound and not driven by buzzword-development.

[–] FineCoatMummy@sh.itjust.works 3 points 7 hours ago (1 children)

IMHO XMPP is far more architecturally sound

I lost track of the technical status of IRC long ago so maybe it can do this too. XMPP at least, can support true E2EE, not just end to server. My mates and I use that for normal chatting, sending our vacation pics around, photos of our kids with their new puppy, things like that.

It's worked well. Free of big-tech. Hopefully free of snoops and mass surveillance. I'm 100% sure any three letter agency could get in, if one ever cared to hear us prattling on about microbrews. The point is to opt out of the information dragnet, not to be all Jason Bourne.

XMPP has been the cat's pajamas so far.

[–] ageedizzle@piefed.ca 2 points 6 hours ago (2 children)

Why did you two opt for XMPP rather than Signal Messenger?

[–] sakuraba@lemmy.ml 2 points 5 hours ago

maybe the phone number requirement on signal? that would be a dealbreaker if any of them didn't have one

[–] FineCoatMummy@sh.itjust.works 1 points 5 hours ago

When me and my mates set this up, Signal was only available on phones, not desktops. It also required providing a phone number to a central authority, which some of us were not comfortable doing. With XMPP we got the choice of a large number of clients to pick from. Both the server and the clients were lightweight.

I just had a search maybe you can self host a Signal server, but I did not know that at the time. I wanted to self-host. So that was a reason too, but maybe (?) a false reason. The Signal self hosting situation may be murky. My brief search found some claims that the official app does not support using other servers, and you need a customized app to do it. It might be more self host-able in theory than in practice. XMPP had multiple servers to pick from, and lots of clients.

All those things could balance more toward Signal if your priorities are different, tho.

[–] pHr34kY@lemmy.world 5 points 11 hours ago* (last edited 11 hours ago)

Having installed both this week, I much prefer XMPP. I want it as something more like signal/whatsapp just for my immediate family. Some are too young for a phone number, but I want them to join in the fun.

It was a but of messing around getting prosody to work how I want, but I'm really happy with it. It works with my letsencrypt certs. Phone and video calls just work. MySql just works with it. The tricky one was getting it to auth with same credentials as the mail daemon, but I got that going too. It's seamless now.

Matrix was 90% features I would not use.

[–] Eirikr70@jlai.lu 4 points 11 hours ago

I also prefer xmpp, which I find more stable and easier to set up and maintain.

[–] FrostyTrichs@crazypeople.online 4 points 11 hours ago (1 children)

In my experience XMPP is easy to set up, lighter on resources, and the clients tend to work well across multiple platforms. We have small private and public groups using it daily with zero complaints.

Matrix tends to be more involved in setting up, and our group ran into issues where some clients weren't working as smoothly or reliably as we needed for a primary communication platform. We also had a huge problem with traffickers of all sorts joining our rooms to spam their telegram links or CSAM. That hasn't been a problem after more than a year on XMPP.

[–] yo_scottie_oh@lemmy.ml 3 points 11 hours ago (1 children)

When you say traffickers joined your rooms to post spam, how did they find you? Is it like email where they can just try every possible email address at a particular domain or was your room posted publicly on your website or something and that's how they found you?

[–] FrostyTrichs@crazypeople.online 3 points 10 hours ago

The rooms we had issues with were public rooms that were discoverable via Matrix, with a couple of links on the web to direct people to them. The links to the rooms still exist in the same places, but ever since converting them to XMPP links rather than Matrix ones the traffickers have disappeared. I couldn't tell you if that's because XMPP is less popular with that crowd or if the tools they're using to discover and spam them don't work on XMPP. Either way it was a welcome change.

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