this post was submitted on 14 Sep 2025
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Need some links to share with someone to dispell the smol bean ukraine myth

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[–] o_d@lemmygrad.ml 6 points 4 days ago* (last edited 4 days ago) (1 children)

I haven't read these in a while, but I have them bookmarked for this reason and I think they might help.

E: Added cw

[–] woodenghost@hexbear.net 4 points 4 days ago* (last edited 4 days ago) (1 children)

Thanks for the first one, really appreciate it! What do you use the second one for? I assume it's good reference material, because liberals trust the new york times, right? I didn't read everything, I have to admit, but large parts of it. To me it seems to pretend to reveal secrets, but surly everything the New York Times publishes is exactly what the Pentagon wants published, right? It also uses a very emotional language, paints "the Americans" as cautious, reasonable and bursting with good intentions, "the Ukrainians" as brave defenders of their homeland, who sometimes are a bit too enthusiastic. It ends with a perfect tearful moment full of heroic carry on spirit.

I see how it can be useful to add credibility (in libs eyes) to facts, that you already know to be true, but it's not a great source itself, is it?

Sorry, I know I'm ranting pointlessly, I was just amazed how the writing is constantly about spinning a story, not about backing facts with sources. It's all: "than, at that secret meeting, the general felt that feeling", "than he had those intentions, and these emotions". Even if the actual person said so themselves, it still wouldn't be newsworthy or trustworthy. Journalism should be about actions and facts, but the style is more similar to classic fiction writing than to journalism, or rather, like a movie script. Actually wouldn't be surprised to see Hollywood make that movie soon.

[–] o_d@lemmygrad.ml 7 points 4 days ago (1 children)

The New York Times, like you say, is a trusted source for liberals. The article is of course, considering the source, from a pro-NATO perspective. It includes the opinion that the West should have been quicker to arm Ukraine and fear mongers "pro-Ukrainians" (read fascists) becoming the subject of political repression in the annexed territories. However, it goes into great detail regarding US/NATO involvement in the conflict and reveals how it is in-fact a NATO Russia proxy war rooted in NATO's goals of expansion and destabilizing Russia.

DeepSeek SummaryBased on the provided search results, the archived New York Times article (available at https://archive.ph/jTAcu) details the secretive and extensive intelligence-sharing relationship between the United States and Ukraine during the Russo-Ukrainian War, particularly from 2022 onwards. Here is a summary of its key points:

🔍 Key Summary Points:

  1. Covert Intelligence Sharing: The U.S. provided real-time, precise targeting intelligence to Ukrainian forces, often without disclosing the sources or methods behind it. This included satellite imagery, signals intelligence, and other data crucial for striking Russian targets. Ukrainian officials were given chains of coordinates categorized by priority (e.g., "Priority 1," "Priority 2"), with assurances of accuracy from U.S. officials like General Donahue, who emphasized, "Don’t worry about how we found out. Just trust that when you shoot, it will hit it" .
  2. Operational Secrecy and Deniability: The U.S. maintained plausible deniability in its involvement. For instance, one U.S. official noted that by phrasing interactions carefully—such as not explicitly "passing targets" but instead sharing intelligence—officials could legitimately deny direct targeting assistance .
  3. Internal Ukrainian Rivalries: The intelligence-sharing process sometimes exacerbated tensions within Ukraine's military command. For example, U.S. intelligence was occasionally shared directly with General Syrsky, bypassing his superior, General Zaluzhny, which loyalists viewed as undermining the chain of command .
  4. Early Challenges and Adaptation: Initially, the intelligence-sharing was ad hoc, with General Donahue and aides using phones to relay information on Russian troop movements. Over time, this evolved into a more structured system, including secure cloud-based platforms for data exchange .
  5. Incidents of Strategic Misalignment: The sinking of the Russian warship Moskva in April 2022 highlighted friction in the partnership. While Ukrainians viewed it as a triumph, U.S. officials reacted with "anger, surprise, and panic" because they had not intended to enable strikes on high-profile symbols of Russian power like the Black Sea Fleet flagship .
  6. Sanitized Language and Bureaucratization: The article notes the U.S. tendency to use sanitized, bureaucratic language for military operations (e.g., "targets" instead of "moving targets") and weapon systems (e.g., ATACMS, HIMARS), which may obscure the realities of war .
  7. Geopolitical Motivations: The piece suggests that the U.S. involvement was driven by strategic goals to weaken Russia's military and economy without committing boots on the ground, effectively using Ukraine as a proxy. This aligns with broader realpolitik perspectives, where the U.S. aimed to grind down Russia while minimizing direct confrontation .
  8. Criticism of U.S. Strategy: The U.S. approach was criticized as reactive and overly cautious, with delays in providing critical weapons (e.g., ATACMS and cluster shells) costing Ukrainian lives and opportunities. This lack of coherent strategy was seen as handwringing that constrained Ukraine's defensive efforts .
  9. Human Costs and Occupied Territories: The article touches on the grim realities for Ukrainians in occupied territories, where pro-Ukrainian sentiments could lead to brutal repression by Russian forces, as seen in incidents in Bucha, Izyum, and Mariupol .
  10. Ongoing Conflict and Peace Dynamics: Recent developments (as of the search results' context in 2025) indicate discussions of ceasefires and peace deals, often influenced by U.S. political changes. For instance, the Trump administration proposed a 30-day ceasefire focusing on energy infrastructure and Black Sea shipping, though ground fighting continued .

💎 Overall Significance:

The article reveals the depth and complexity of the U.S.-Ukraine intelligence partnership, highlighting both its effectiveness in countering Russian advances and the underlying tensions, risks, and geopolitical calculations involved. It also critiques the U.S. for a sometimes inconsistent and overly cautious approach, which may have prolonged the conflict and increased human suffering .

For further details, you can access the full article here.

[–] woodenghost@hexbear.net 3 points 4 days ago* (last edited 4 days ago) (1 children)

Yes, thanks, I get it.

it goes into great detail regarding US/NATO involvement in the conflict and reveals how it is in-fact a NATO Russia proxy war rooted in NATO's goals of expansion and destabilizing Russia.

Totally. It's easy to forget, that this is not obvious for libs.

From the AI summary:

  1. Incidents of Strategic Misalignment: The sinking of the Russian warship Moskva in April 2022 highlighted friction in the partnership. While Ukrainians viewed it as a triumph, U.S. officials reacted with "anger, surprise, and panic" because they had not intended to enable strikes on high-profile symbols of Russian power like the Black Sea Fleet flagship .

This is one of the points that I was sceptical about when reading the original article. I'm ready to believe, that intelligence was shared that lead to the destruction of the ship. But I don't think intentions or emotional reactions can be reliably established. I mean, yes, it could have been this way and maybe that's exactly how it happened. Or, maybe, they totally did share this intelligence on purpose. I can easily imagine an editor or pentagon contact going: "well in this case we can't really say we wanted that escalation, it doesn't quite fit the reasonable image we want to get across to our audience, oh, I know, just say it wasn't intentional, that'll work and also spice up the story nicely "

[–] o_d@lemmygrad.ml 2 points 4 days ago

I completely agree. Engaging in proxy warfare is largely about establishing the illusion of plausible deniability after all. I suppose it was careless of me to not add a disclaimer. I assumed most comrades here would know to separate the opinion from fact, but you can never be too cautious.

[–] lilypad@hexbear.net 2 points 4 days ago (1 children)

Not reading, but someone posted this and i found it at least somewhat useful https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oNZwLA869Sc

It does have "totalitarianism" stuff, but like they actually define what they mean by that word and well libs love "totalitiarianism" so it may actually be a benefit for libs emilie-shrug

[–] HexReplyBot@hexbear.net 1 points 4 days ago

I found a YouTube link in your comment. Here are links to the same video on alternative frontends that protect your privacy: