this post was submitted on 15 Jul 2025
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The Butlerian Jihad is NOT a warning against AI (www.youtube.com)
submitted 3 days ago by p03locke@lemmy.dbzer0.com to c/technology@beehaw.org
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[–] audaxdreik@pawb.social 16 points 2 days ago* (last edited 2 days ago) (1 children)

Kind of really disagree with this video 😕

I've only read the first two Dune novels, and that awhile ago, so I'm poorly equipped to have this conversation, but the video focuses on the idea that fascists are perpetuating it to keep powerful tools of liberation out of the hands of the proletariat. You wouldn't agree with a fascist, would you? While there may be some truth to this, it completely ignores the cause of the BJ to begin with. It was in fact a rebellion by the people against those tools.

Even taken at face value, the video seems to posit that because the fascists can't be trusted, AI is indeed a powerful tool for liberation. I don't see that as the case. It hardly needs to be said, but Dune is a sci-fi novel, the context of which does not currently apply to our real world circumstances. AI is the tool of the fascists, used for oppression. I don't think it can simply be repurposed for liberation, that's a naive interpretation that ignores all of the actual ways in which the current implementations of AI work.

Disgusting AI-generated add for merch halfway through.

EDIT: the point is further confounded by the fact that the BJ eliminated "computers, thinking machines, and conscious robots", not simply AI. Many of those are tools that could empower people but that doesn't mean you can just lump them together.

[–] p03locke@lemmy.dbzer0.com 3 points 2 days ago* (last edited 2 days ago) (1 children)

While there may be some truth to this, it completely ignores the cause of the BJ to begin with. It was in fact a rebellion by the people against those tools.

I think his point is that Dune is full of unreliable narrators, and history is written by the victors. Why do we take the Butlerian Jihad at face value? Because other rich elite houses retell the same story and enforce the same rules?

Or maybe the technology really did go too far, but the result was an massive, massive overcorrection that put humanity into another Dark Age.

I don’t think it can simply be repurposed for liberation, that’s a naive interpretation that ignores all of the actual ways in which the current implementations of AI work.

LLMs are a tool, and all tools can be repurposed or repossessed. Open source models and LLM tools are everywhere. Pretending that ChatGPT and other corporate models are the only ones out there are exactly what the corpofacists in power want you to believe.

By ignoring this technology and sticking our fingers in our ears, we are allowing them to reshape out the technology works, instead of molding it for our own purposes. It's not going to go away, and thinking that is just as foolish as believing the Internet is a fad.

Are parts of it overhyped and overblown? Sure. Rich assholes have a knack for taking some concept and hyping it up to a million and under-delivering. But, the technology is still promising enough that it's worth exploring where it can be beneficial, and it's new enough that we can make sure we become a part of the design.

Disgusting AI-generated add for merch halfway through.

The negative preconceived notion bias is really not helping matters.

[–] audaxdreik@pawb.social 9 points 2 days ago (1 children)

LLMs are a tool, and all tools can be repurposed or repossessed.

That's just simply not true. Tools are usually quite specific in purpose, and often times the tasks they accomplish cannot be undone by the same tool. A drill cannot undrill a hole. I'm familiar with ML (machine learning) and the many, many legitimate uses it has across a wide range of fields.

What you're thinking of, I suspect, is a weapon. A resource that can be wielded equally by and against each side. The pains caused on the common person by the devaluation of our art and labor can't be inflicted against the corpofascists; for them, that's the point. They are the ones selling these tools to you and you cannot defeat them by buying in. And I do very much mean the open source models as well. Waging war on their terms, with their tools and methods (repossessed as they may be) is still a losing proposition.

By ignoring this technology and sticking our fingers in our ears, we are allowing them to reshape out the technology works, instead of molding it for our own purposes. It’s not going to go away, and thinking that is just as foolish as believing the Internet is a fad.

Time will tell. How are your NFTs doing? (sorry, that was mean)

The negative preconceived notion bias is really not helping matters.

Guilty as charged, I'm pretty strongly anti-AI. But seriously, watch that ad and tell me that the disorienting cadence of speech and uncanny, overly detailed generated images look good? Most of us have seen what's on offer and we're telling you, we're tired.

Look, I do apologize, I'm very much trying not to be overly aggro here or attack you in any way. But I think discussions about the religious overtones and belief systems of the BJ are exactly where we're at.

How o3 and Grok 4 Accidentally Vindicated Neurosymbolic AI

This is a really interesting article. Gary Marcus is a lot more positive on AI than myself I think, but that's understandable given his background. If I do concede that some form of AGI is inevitable, I think we are within our rights to demand that it is indeed the tool we deserve, and not just snake oil.

AI art still ugly, sorry not sorry.

[–] myfavouritename@beehaw.org 4 points 2 days ago

No note other than to say this is a fantastic rebuttal.

[–] zonnewin@feddit.nl 5 points 2 days ago

This is a pet peeve of mine, but if you don't know how to use thou, it's better not to use it. The correct form is: thou shalt.

[–] bradorsomething@ttrpg.network 3 points 2 days ago (1 children)

I believe in God Emperor he touched on the book mentality when Leto 2 talked with some Bene Jesserit about how machines made you treat people like machines, and that was the concept that was overthrown.

[–] p03locke@lemmy.dbzer0.com 3 points 2 days ago (1 children)

So, he became a biological machine to treat people like machines. Sounds like nothing was learned.