this post was submitted on 16 May 2025
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[–] agamemnonymous@sh.itjust.works 9 points 1 day ago (4 children)

There's a sticking point that no one's been able to explain to me:

If you're in the minority, revolution is against the democratic will of the people.

If you're in the majority, you have the votes to actually accomplish something with reform. It's not like we live in a monarchy, reform is possible under our system.

If reform isn't working to bring about your goals, either your goals aren't popular enough, or they are popular but the people lack the will and organization to vote for them.

If the people lack the will and organization to vote effectively, they certainly lack the will and organization to topple the government.

My area of expertise is managing complex systems and change implementation. I sincerely don't understand how revolution is supposed to work where reform doesn't. No one has been able to give me an answer that doesn't bill down to idealistic hope. How is this revolution supposed to be implemented, and why can't we build the foundation for revolution while simultaneously using the tools we have for reform? Wouldn't widespread support for reform be the best possible proof of consensus?

[–] leftytighty@slrpnk.net 1 points 4 hours ago

This assumes that everyone is equally politically informed and engaged, and that everyone has given governance as much thought as one another.

The sad reality is a huge portion of people sleepwalk through life and they'd get by the same in a democracy vs. feudalism vs. socialism.

[–] m532@lemmygrad.ml 7 points 1 day ago

If you’re in the majority, you have the votes to actually accomplish something with reform.

Believing in santaclaus at least gets you presents...

[–] dzervas@lemmy.world 1 points 23 hours ago

I think (reading aint my cup of tea so I do what I can) that the idea is that the majority of the people are easily swayed

one could argue that this is the case now with the amount of capitalist and anti-leftist projections

and the idea to fix the root cause of the above is tackled by each revolution-worthy system - education, free time, access to knowledge, etc.

though youve got a very good point that if we depend on stupid people to build something better, were buiding it on/with stupid people

good discussion subject, I'll take it to my friends

[–] Feathercrown@lemmy.world 0 points 1 day ago

Excellent point

[–] jsomae@lemmy.ml 6 points 1 day ago

departs when full

I love this detail.

[–] Korhaka@sopuli.xyz 3 points 1 day ago

Thought this was about the UK reform party at first, still works

[–] AllToRuleThemOne@lemmy.world 31 points 2 days ago (1 children)

Cmon bro, just one more reform, bro. It will fix the system. Bro, i promise. Bro, bro its going to serve us all. This time realy, bro.

[–] UnderpantsWeevil@lemmy.world 1 points 1 day ago (1 children)

What is a revolution if not a lot of small reforms happening all at once?

[–] Edie@lemmy.ml 9 points 1 day ago

It is the overthrowing of the current system, and replacing of it with a different one. Not a bunch of small reforms happening all at once.

[–] pseudo@jlai.lu 28 points 2 days ago (1 children)

Funny, the revolution is the one not spinning...

[–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 20 points 2 days ago (2 children)

The one not spinning endlessly in a trapped cycle, yes. That's the point, the reform side is "moving" in place, never actually moving nor is it capable of moving. The revolution van is capable of moving.

[–] AndrasKrigare@beehaw.org 10 points 1 day ago

I think they're making a joke that one of the definitions of "revolution" is making a complete circle. In the cartoon, "reform" is making a ton of revolutions.

[–] loonsun@sh.itjust.works 17 points 2 days ago (1 children)
[–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 10 points 2 days ago

Ah, I'm stupid, got it now!

[–] LovableSidekick@lemmy.world 10 points 2 days ago* (last edited 2 days ago) (4 children)

The AI haters will hate this, but I think AI is gonna provide the push that forces the fundamental changes we want. You can only replace so many people with AI and robots. The theoretical point of zero employees also means zero customers, because nobody has any money to buy anything, so making employees obsolete makes business and profits obsolete. In the real world the system will change long before that point, because it will have to. It might be from food riots and social breakdown, or political movements finally taking hold, I don't know, but AI will make the profit system eat itself. I'm just not looking forward to the extremely difficult transition period.

[–] drewcarreyfan@lemm.ee 5 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago) (1 children)

I want to believe you're right, but in a world where AI can fully replace human labor, that will likely also apply to the areas of mass surveillance and military suppression.

Imo, one of the scariest and most frustrating developments in robotics in the past 50 years is the ability to process billions of text and voice conversations, all at once, 24/7. Things really take a different tone when all of a sudden the US Government can find it feasible to listen to all of us, every time.

[–] LovableSidekick@lemmy.world 2 points 1 day ago

Yes, we're going to have these surveillance capabilities. Anti-AI memes and boycotts won't stop it. The rational choice is to develop authority structures the public can trust. Instead of treating the whole concept of authority as the enemy by default, we have to figure out a way to make it trustworthy. The question is how, and I don't have that answer but I know that's the question. I see it as kind of analogous to how providing basic income, healthcare, etc. for everybody would cut down on crimes of survival. When people aren't desperate they don't do desperate things. If making laws didn't attract money and prestige, greedy people wouldn't be part of it but public-spirited people would.

[–] gandalf_der_12te@discuss.tchncs.de 1 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago) (1 children)

I agree with you that AI will probably replace a lot of white-collar jobs by 2035, which is not that far away, and it will necessitate political change.

I also consider that UBI (Universal Basic Income) is probably the most natural way forward. It pays a constant amount to each person per month, based on money collected through a wealth tax. It does not have to be implemented all-at-once, but can be gradually introduced. I.e. only provide $200/(person*month) in the beginning, and then continuously scale up as needed.


The wealth tax is needed simultaneously because the money has to come from somewhere. Printing money anew is not great because it leads to steep inflation.

[–] LovableSidekick@lemmy.world 2 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago)

Exactly, and as automation gradually makes profits obsolete, the wealth tax and UBI should evolve from money into a basic right to receive goods produced by the automation. Money is really just a middleman. If we eliminate scarcity we won't need it.

[–] explodicle@sh.itjust.works 8 points 2 days ago

I want to believe you're right. But everything else so far has just been a gradually applied multiplier on human labor, not a full replacement. Instead of a sudden tipping point, we'd watch each other become destitute one by one, perpetually looking out for only ourselves.

[–] jsomae@lemmy.ml 0 points 1 day ago (1 children)

I think you're talking about accelerationism. IMO, the main problem with unrestrained AI growth is that if AI turns out to be as good as the hype says it is, then we'll all be dead before revolution occurs.

[–] LovableSidekick@lemmy.world 1 points 20 hours ago (1 children)

The trick is to judge things on their own merit and not on the hype around them.

[–] jsomae@lemmy.ml 1 points 19 hours ago

In that case, you should know that Geoff Hinton (the guy whose lab kicked off the whole AI revolution last decade) quit Google in order to warn about the existential risk of AI. He believes there's at least a 10% chance that it will kill us all within 30 years. Ilya Sutskever, his former student and co-founder of OpenAI, believes similarly, which is why he quit OpenAI and founded Safe Superintelligence (yes that basic html document really is their homepage) to help solve the alignment problem.

You can also find popular rationalist AI pundits like gwern, acx, yudkowsky, etc. voicing similar concerns, with a range of P(doom) from low to the laughably high.

[–] TheWolfOfSouthEnd@lemmygrad.ml 10 points 2 days ago (1 children)

People are voting for Reform like they are different to the Conservatives…

[–] Zombie@feddit.uk 2 points 1 day ago (1 children)

They are different. They're more racist, xenophobic, and (surprisingly, it's possible) more incompetent.

[–] TheWolfOfSouthEnd@lemmygrad.ml 3 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago)

Yes. I just don’t see the point of discussing the finer details cause they’re both scum, any half decent person would give them both a wide berth.

Edit; I think that they also know exactly what they’re doing.

[–] FunkyStuff@hexbear.net 52 points 3 days ago (2 children)
[–] anarchoilluminati@hexbear.net 9 points 1 day ago (1 children)

Such a great passage.

Was this If We Burn or Jakarta Method?

[–] FunkyStuff@hexbear.net 8 points 1 day ago

Jakarta Method

[–] bennieandthez@lemmygrad.ml 13 points 2 days ago* (last edited 2 days ago) (1 children)

Another more recent example is "21th century socialism" in latin america, one by one they've gone to shit. Even the ones still standing are one election cycle away from going to shit, it's all it takes to disassemble a reformist path.

[–] Grapho@lemmy.ml 9 points 2 days ago (1 children)

And even if they triumph again and again, what's stopping an opportunist from slipping through the ranks when the people have no shot at pulling the fucker back down?

[–] bennieandthez@lemmygrad.ml 6 points 1 day ago

Which is literally what happened in Ecuador.

[–] ZWQbpkzl@hexbear.net 25 points 3 days ago (4 children)
  • get on board for revolution
  • read up on theory
  • learn about the mass line
  • do mass line
  • masses demand reform.

Gotta square this circle. You definitely don't want to go down the track of being co-opted by democrats. But you absolutely cannot mobilize the masses by just telling them "wait for the revolution".

[–] m532@lemmygrad.ml 4 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago)

When the masses don't want revolution, check if they are looting the stuff of people in other countries. If they do, you know where to look for real revolutionary liberation potential.

[–] procapra@lemm.ee 11 points 2 days ago

It takes work, and it takes emotional patience with people. Screaming at the top of our lungs that we must have revolution does nothing. We must be teachers first, show the masses that their attempts at reforms are failing. If they are rational at all, they will listen. If they are not rational, getting angry and scolding them does nothing.

The western left (and I self-criticize when I say this because it applies to me as well) tends to be very infantile, very impatient, and has relatively low levels of militancy within it. I'm a full on hoxhaist. I have a very specific view on what I want socialism to look like, and what strategies I believe are actually beneficial. That being said, if I spend the bulk of my time engaged in disrespecting other tendencies instead of doing literally anything I will never see the world I want. No bunkers will be built, and I will be sad. ☹️

The average person just wants to see us do something. How often do communist parties in the west actually organize things themselves as opposed to hopping onto some liberal groups thing? If we can't even, for example organize our own red aid in a remotely comparable way to what some rando charity is doing, we got a long ass way to go ya know? There is hardly room to bicker and try to dictate peoples lives and views until we've proven to be a force of good.

[–] umbrella@lemmy.ml 13 points 2 days ago* (last edited 2 days ago)

theres no such thing as waiting for a revolution

it has to be built, and its a lot of work.

luckily if we have a lot of people on board, we can divide the work up and do quite a bunch.

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