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Democratic freedoms at risk as Germany’s new government prioritises support for Israel. (www.middleeastmonitor.com)

submitted 2 days ago by PeaceLove@lemmy.world to c/europe@feddit.org

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[–] EuroMod@feddit.org 8 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago) (1 children)

Under German law (ianal), comparing Israel's actions to the Holocaust may be considered a criminal offence, i.e. Israel-related antisemitism (German explanation). We are trying to follow German law here - the servers are in Austria, the mods are not necessarily though.

It also makes sense to avoid these comparisons for basic common decency and piety reasons.

As such, I'd urge you to steer clear of these comparisons. Thank you. /f

In European democracies, variations of a modernized anti-Semitism remain predominant, using various ciphers and allusions, among other things. Two aspects stand out here: (i) On the one hand, new conspiracy myths stand out alongside forms of subtle Holocaust relativization and trivialization. Ultimately, these almost always identify Jews as the "string-pullers". This is no coincidence: anti-Semitism is the historical conspiracy narrative of all. One prominent example is the claims that the Jewish patron George Soros is behind either a global "great population exchange" or the coronavirus crisis: Corona crisis is the Jewish patron George Soros - although his Jewish identity is often not explicitly mentioned. (ii) On the other hand, an aggressive hostility towards the Jewish state acts as an important medium for articulating and spreading contemporary anti-Semitism: Israel - the internationally "most important and succinct symbol of Jewish life and survival" (Schwarz-Friesel & Reinharz 2013, 172) - as well as against "the Zionists" (a now almost universally used cipher for "the Jews"). Link has preview pop-upInternal link: Anti-Semitic conspiracy myths and hostility towards Israel often end up appearing together.

(BPB, DeepL translation)

[–] FarraigePlaisteach@lemmy.world 4 points 12 hours ago

I respect the considerations the mods have to be conscious of, but can I ask if this is the stance of feddit.org or just this community? Unfortunately I’ll have to block any group that requires complicity to genocide by ignoring the elephant in the room. Again, nothing personal.

[–] kamenlady@lemmy.world 51 points 2 days ago (2 children)

I'm German and this completely changed how i view my dear fellow Germans...

I'm sure we will look back in shame in the future. This is against compassion, humanity and protection of the innocent.

Germany lost the ability to stand on a moral high ground.

But what really concerns me, is how much influence Israel has around the world.

I'm not talking about Jews.

[–] Saleh@feddit.org 22 points 2 days ago

Antizionist Jews are disproportionately affected by repressive measures in Germany. It even goes as far as the federal and some state level commissioners for "combating antisemitism and Jewish life" attacking Jews with the "wrong" political opinions as "Allegedly Jewish" or otherwise entitling themselves to decide who are the "good" and who are the "bad" Jews.

https://jewishcurrents.org/the-strange-logic-of-germanys-antisemitism-bureaucrats
https://granta.com/once-again-germany-defines-who-is-a-jew-part-i/

[–] atro_city@fedia.io 14 points 2 days ago (1 children)

Being anti-zionist =/= being anti-semitic. You're good.

[–] CosmoNova@lemmy.world 12 points 1 day ago

If only the German government saw it this way. Public discourse is sadly being swallowed by fascist rhetoric when it comes to this and mirrors what actual Nazis had to say and still do say about Israel.

Albert Einstein on the other hand saw the Likud (Netanyahu‘s political party) for what it is: Fascist in nature. But hey, when was Einstein ever right about anything? He‘s probably just an anti-semite too. /s

[–] Bibbiliop@lemmy.world 34 points 2 days ago (3 children)

When I first emigrated to Germany, I had so high hopes and opinions of this country and people living here. I had seen protests, counter protests, people talking about hard topics, cherishing democracy.

Now, I am disappointed. Looking for a way out. I feel like a criminal because I am against genocide and I support the ICC. I mean a court that it’s main responsibility is to prevent tragedies such as the Holocaust should be supported right?

Things are moving in a direction that makes no sense to me anymore. I feel like an alien

[–] Melchior@feddit.org 11 points 1 day ago

and the bad part is that it is not just Gaza. The same beat downs happen with climate protests and even anti far right protests. Germany is moving to the right and it sucks badly.

[–] Wanpieserino@lemm.ee 4 points 1 day ago

Now that's the good thing bout the EU. You can pack up and go to another one quite easily.

[+] b161@lemmy.blahaj.zone 3 points 2 days ago (1 children)

[removed by mod]

[+] Peter_Arbeitslos@feddit.org -9 points 2 days ago (4 children)

Stop it. Stop comparing the Shoa and the current massacre in Gaza. No massacre is like the holocaust, there are no holocausts. Especially from my German perspective, comparing the Shoa and another massacre is to trivialise the mass slaughter on six million jews.

[–] thisnameisnottolong@aussie.zone 15 points 1 day ago (1 children)

I disagree. The holocaust is documented as the worse genocide in history by several metrics. Any other mass killing should be juxtaposed to it (and others) to see the similarities and differences. If a nation begins to kill people under the same ideology that birthed the holocaust ( or any other genocide) it should be documented, called out and prevented from doing so, so we don't get another holocaust or holodomor or Cambodian genocide or Rwandan genocide... If we hold the holocaust as something unique and separate, we make the mistake that it can not happen again. Europeans in Australia spent about 150 years trying to wipe outs it's indigenous population. ~84% population decline. Systematic destruction of culture. Policies of displacement, family destruction and to breed them out. This was not the holocaust. But the similarities are there. We should absolutely be looking at what is happening in Palestine/Israel to see if the same rationale used for the Holocaust is in play.

[–] Peter_Arbeitslos@feddit.org -5 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago) (1 children)

juxtaposed

You may juxtapose it for more or less scientific reasons but as I explained in this thread, you don't juxtapose it by comparing the holocaust and Gaza in a political debate. I said nothing about we shouldn't document/prevent massacres or stuff. The current one isn't under the same ideology as holocaust and doesn't have to, to despise it.

[–] thisnameisnottolong@aussie.zone 9 points 1 day ago (1 children)

Juxtapose means to put things side by side to compare them. I said document it, call it out and prevent it. That's not for scientific reasons, its very much political. How many more Gazans need to be killed before it's enough like the holocaust for someone to do something to stop it? We compare these things because they look similar. Not to trivialise, but to understand.

[–] Peter_Arbeitslos@feddit.org -5 points 1 day ago (1 children)

As I repeatedly said: It doesn't have to be "a holocaust" nor a genocide to despise it. Please just read what I pointed out in this posts's comment section .

[–] thisnameisnottolong@aussie.zone 6 points 1 day ago

I have, you are missing the point. You seem to be suggesting that what is happening in Gaza is dispicable but can't be labelled as a "holocaust" nor, arguably, a "genocide". So this is a semantic argument based on your personal perception of the word holocaust and genocide. Do you have a more appropriate word for what is happening in Gaza? Unfortunately "Gazans are being treated despicably" probably doesn't capture the whole 50000+ people dead and more dying due to military strikes, starvation and lack of clean water and medical care. See the funny thing with English is that when we don't have a word for something we borrow one, or use one that describes a similar situation... But, yeah the important thing is that no body should compare this documented genocide with any other genocide especially not the worst one ever documented in detail.

[–] Venus_Ziegenfalle@feddit.org 12 points 1 day ago (1 children)

Especially from my German perspective, comparing the Shoa and another massacre is to trivialise the mass slaughter on six million jews.

And from my German perspective acting like the Holocaust is entirely its own thing and ephasizing that it cannot repeat itself no matter what trivialises it more than any lukewarm comparison could. It's unfortunately a common sentiment but a dangerous one because if it's just a historical fact and completely detached from the present then why should anyone except historians care? Shutting down any comparison to current events does nothing except show everyone what a virtuous, guilt-ridden German you are. Focusing on the aspects of the Holocaust that were not unique and could happen again/are happening again would be more productive.

[–] HK65@sopuli.xyz 14 points 2 days ago (1 children)

No massacre is like the holocaust

Honest, truly honest question here, why?

I don't feel like it is trivialising anything, if anything the Holocaust and its worldwide condemnation gives a special voice to victims of such crimes everywhere. It's less easy to trivialise other such crimes as the Holocaust has been accepted worldwide as one of the darkest chapters of history, so comparisons to it can bring that suffering closer to people and leave less room for the perpetrators to muddy the waters.

[–] Peter_Arbeitslos@feddit.org -2 points 2 days ago (3 children)

if anything the Holocaust and its worldwide condemnation gives a special voice to victims of such crimes everywhere

See? And that's trivialising it. There is not a single case of a genocide as organized, precisely planned and carried out against so many victims. The holocaust is single event in history of mankind. If you compare any other massacre to it, you start trivialising it. Every comparsion of a massacre and the holocaust is trivialising the holocaust more and more. One could say (and I do): If the holocaust and other massacres have been compared often enough, holocaust will be just another massacre and it won't be noticed if it happens again.

[–] HK65@sopuli.xyz 14 points 2 days ago (1 children)

If you compare any other massacre to it, you start trivialising it.

It feels though as if we trivialized other massacres because they will never hold up to a standard we consider to be beyond comparison.

You are right that comparing such events, as in "this event is less significant because less people died" trivialises the immense human suffering involved in the Holocaust. But that has to go both ways, and comparing the Holocaust to these modern events also trivialises the impact of these current events. Each of these events, indeed each of these deaths is a singular atrocity, a tragedy beyond belief.

[–] Peter_Arbeitslos@feddit.org 0 points 1 day ago

I think we can agree that it doesn't have to be "a" holocaust to be awful and that comparsion to the holocaust doesn't help.

Though I don't understand how you both argue that "[comparsion] gives a special voice to victims of such crimes everywhere" and "[comparsion] also trivialises the impact of these current events". Or don't you think it "gives a special voice" anymore and changed your opinion since posting that comment?

[–] huppakee@lemm.ee 5 points 2 days ago (1 children)

Do you believe that what Israel is doing in Palastine could be considered a genocide by the ICC aside from your point on the holocaust? Just trying to figure out where you stand in this.

[–] Peter_Arbeitslos@feddit.org 9 points 2 days ago* (last edited 2 days ago) (1 children)

Could be a genocide. Isn't yet classified as such, might never be.

E: Also I don't think it's necessary to declare it a genocide. At least not for debates among leftist. It's an obvious mass slaughter and we don't have act like lawyers and declare it a genocide to despise it.

[–] huppakee@lemm.ee 2 points 1 day ago (1 children)

No I agree what we call it doesn't change what is happening, but your reply helped me understand your motive for wanting to distinguish what happens in Gaza and what happend in Europe 80 years ago, so thank you for answering.

[–] Peter_Arbeitslos@feddit.org 4 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago) (1 children)

Wow, a constructive debate about Middle East among leftist. :)

As a German memer, I would have to reply with: Bruder, das ist ja unnormal rar! But I don't think that's appropriate for this topic.

[–] huppakee@lemm.ee 3 points 1 day ago

Like anybody would go and read all these comments and get upset by someone writing German lol. Grüße von eurem bodenständigen Nachbarn ;)

[–] MTK@lemmy.world 3 points 1 day ago

Even if you are right and nothing is a worthy comparison. Let me ask you a somewhat practical and important moral question:

If I murdered 10 people by shooting them in the head because they are black

Or if I murdered 10 people by slowly torturing them until they die from shock, this time it had nothing to do with who they are, just that I want to do this to someone.

What is worse? A terrible motivation or a terrible outcome?

And now that I asked that, maybe you are thinking that it is kind of a moot point, both are horrible, for both I should be in jail for life if not executed, right?

So we all can agree that out of all of the horrific things possible, genocide is one of the worst. A genocide is already hitting max on the horrifying scale, practically speaking, Hitler should have been in jail for life ir executed, but just because what Netanyahu is doing is not as horrific as the Holocaust, does not mean he shouldn't also be in jail for life or executed, right?

And what would be the benifit of keeping the Holocaust in a category of it's own? Does comparing it to something else that basically hits the max on the horrifying scale really reduces from the horrifying reality of the Holocaust?

For the sake of making a better world, I think comparing genocides to genocides, no matter the scale, no matter the horrificness, is the right way to make sure that people understand that any genocide is already as horrifying as it gets

And one last point that I think really drives it home. On the individual level do you think it matters? Does a starving, scared, injured, homeless, orphaned child cares if he is part of the Holocaust or the Gaza genocide? If you take a survivor from each, would you be able to say who is more deeply scarred?

[–] huppakee@lemm.ee 4 points 2 days ago (1 children)

Aside from Germany, does anybody know if more countries are siding with South-Africa than before? I feel like every government is just digging into their position and whatever cruel thing happens doesn't really change anything anymore, at least not at the government level.

[–] Melchior@feddit.org 4 points 1 day ago (1 children)

Macron is talking about recognizing Israel, which Spain, Norway and Ireland have done as well in response to the war in Gaza. Nicaragua is suing Germany over weapon deliveries and Namibia has seized a ship to prevent weapon deliveries to Israel. Pretty much every country, which is not a close ally of the US is siding with Palestine on the issue and quite a few US allies have done things, which are rather anti Israel.

[–] huppakee@lemm.ee 7 points 1 day ago

recognizing Palestine I think you mean, but thanks. I feel the pressure from countries that aren't us allies doesn't add up to meaningful difference. Not so far I guess. So I'm just hoping more and more us allies put pressure on the us and israel, which will only happen if countries currently supporting Palastine wil pressure these us allies to move away from backing Israel.

[–] FarraigePlaisteach@lemmy.world 4 points 2 days ago

This is such a devastatingly regressive step for humanity and global politics.

[–] atro_city@fedia.io -5 points 2 days ago (1 children)

Germany... what have they voted for FFS? Why are they so ardently supporting genoci- oh... now I get it.

[–] pumpkinseedoil@mander.xyz 3 points 1 day ago (1 children)

They're blindly supporting Israel for historical reasons, not because they support genocide.

[–] atro_city@fedia.io 5 points 1 day ago (1 children)

"I'm fine with our historical support despite the genocide." It's like "I don't care that Microsoft and Google use my money to undermine my democracy and make software to bomb brown people, at least their products are shiny".

[–] pumpkinseedoil@mander.xyz 3 points 1 day ago

Exactly. People who use windows don't use it because they want to undermine the USA's democracy but because thats just what they've always been doing and they're not questioning their habits.