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submitted 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago) by hangman@lemm.ee to c/asklemmy@lemmy.world

I have been thinking a lot since the election about what could explain the incredibly high numbers of Americans who seem incapable of critical thinking, or really any kind of high level rational thought or analysis.

Then I stumbled on this post https://old.reddit.com/r/guns/comments/16ires5/lead_exposure_from_shooting_is_a_much_more/

Which essentially explains that “Shooting lead bullets at firing ranges results in elevated BLLs at concentrations that are associated with a variety of adverse health outcome"

I looked at the pubmed abstract in that Reddit post and also this one https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC5289032/

Which states, among other things, “Workers exposed to lead often show impaired performance on neurobehavioral test involving attention, processing, speed, visuospatial abilities, working memory and motor function. It has also been suggested that lead can adversely affect general intellectual performance.”

Now, given that there are well in excess of 300 million guns in the United States, is it possible lead exposure at least partially explains how brain dead many Americans seem to be?

This is a genuine question not a troll and id love to read some evidence to the contrary if any is available

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[-] kerrigan778@lemmy.world 37 points 22 hours ago

No.

No that's kind of stupid.

The amount of lead exposure from shooting is not particularly high and would be concentrated in a very small number of people who are doing things like firing uncoated bullets A LOT ie. reloaders. Most Americans don't own guns and even the ones that do don't fire them indoors extremely regularly and most indoor ranges have soap intended for lead. The lead exposure we're talking about is pretty tiny especially considering lead effects cognition the most during brain DEVELOPMENT and the amount of leaded gas and lead paint are going to be much, much more significant. People who occupationally encounter lead in things like bullets, such as range workers, armorers, etc, monitor their lead exposure and if they are within safe levels the average guy who goes to an indoor range a handful of times a year certainly is. Also, shooting is expensive, most people aren't shooting thousands of rounds a year, so countries with mandatory service where every 18 year old learns to shoot a rifle, likely using thousands of rounds of rifle ammo for every boy as an early adult would still be a much more statistically significant thing, as anyone who has ever received military training has, simply due to cost, shot more rounds than a very large chunk of any population

[-] PM_ME_WRISTS_GIRL@lemmynsfw.com 54 points 1 day ago

Yes, but not because of guns. While the adverse effects of leaded gasoline were known in the 60s and leaded gasoline got banned in most countries, the US only phased it out in 1996. Which means that millions of people alive today are exposed as a child. This has a huge impact on IQ:

The average lead-linked loss in cognitive ability was 2.6 IQ points per person as of 2015. This amounted to a total loss of 824,097,690 IQ points, disproportionately endured by those born between 1951 and 1980.

[-] Feathercrown@lemmy.world 27 points 22 hours ago

This amounted to a total loss of 824,097,690 IQ points

What a useless figure compared to the 2.6 per capita given earlier

[-] Ohmmy@lemmy.dbzer0.com 9 points 22 hours ago

IQ is a useless data point anyway as even IQ point values have shifted over the past 100-ish years. An average IQ now used to be genius level IQ in the past and it mostly comes down to basic education and not starving.

[-] OneOrTheOtherDontAskMe@lemmy.world 13 points 23 hours ago

Adding all the points together feels useless as a metric. But 2.6 per individual doesn't sound as drastic as I was expecting leaded gas to impact. Still bad, just not what I'd call a huge impact.

[-] Droechai@lemm.ee 4 points 21 hours ago

The lowering of emotional self-regulation and impulse control on the other hand swings wildly with just a few percents over a population with a much more dangerous extreme on the bell curve

[-] Zak@lemmy.world 178 points 1 day ago

My aunt spent a long time working in education in the USA, much of it in leadership roles. When she incorporated lessons on critical thinking into the curriculum, it resulted in a lot of pushback from parents who did not appreciate their kids applying the lessons at home.

People who actively resist the use of critical thinking will seem cognitively impaired because they are, in fact intentionally impairing their cognition. My intuition here is to blame religious fundamentalism, but that's not a well-researched position.

[-] Flocklesscrow@lemm.ee 42 points 1 day ago

100%

"We are already providing all the answers you will ever need." -religion

[-] WhatAmLemmy@lemmy.world 19 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago)

Organized religion is, fundamentally — at its very core — based on rejecting critical thought; to "just have faith" in the unknown/unknowable.

It is in no way surprising that it's incompatible with advanced science/evidence-based civilization.

[-] NotMyOldRedditName@lemmy.world 17 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago)

This is from the Texas GOP 2012 education platform.

"We oppose the teaching of Higher Order Thinking Skills (HOTS) (values clarification), critical thinking skills and similar programs that are simply a relabeling of Outcome-Based Education (OBE) (mastery learning) which focus on behavior modification and have the purpose of challenging the student’s fixed beliefs and undermining parental authority."

They backtracked on critical thinking after the outrage it caused with this

  • Munisteri told KVUE, "The platform plank is against a specific type of teaching called 'outcome-based education.'

"The reason why critical thinking is mentioned is some places try to disguise the program of outcome-based education and just re-label it as 'critical thinking.' "

[-] LovableSidekick@lemmy.world 6 points 1 day ago

"Good Christian kids need fear-based learning, like we had!"

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[-] Curious_Canid@lemmy.ca 21 points 1 day ago

Fundamentalism is certainly a contributing factor, but there are others. Conservatives have been working to cut back on education since the early 80's. Removing critical thinking training was one of the objectives.. Conservative policies are unpopular and are often supported with misrepresentations and outright lies. To succeed, they need a public without the knowledge or skills to realize their arguments are invalid. Unfortunately, they have gone a long way toward accomplishing that.

[-] PillBugTheGreat@lemmy.world 27 points 1 day ago

Yeah man. When that kid starts asking questions and challenging the family norms, that's the teacher's fault for making their life harder. It isn't a sign that the parent needs to adapt.

Adapting IS a pain in the ass. Some parents don't have the faculties to do it. Some do, but don't after getting done with work. It is truely a generational trauma that the parent has to head off in themselves for it to carry to early aged kids.

[-] LovableSidekick@lemmy.world 6 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago)

A lot of parental pushback comes from frustration over the Dunning-Kruger effect, where somebody who learns a little about a subject feels like an expert. This is often where kids are at. If you keep studying the same material you realize how much you don't know, which tends to make you feel ignorant, but as you continue you get better at gauging what level you're at. A lot of it is a matter of maturity. Some parents don't mind that the kids are learning new things, they just aren't very good at parenting it. Highly religious people are more likely to see outside information and analyticals skills as a threat, because yeah they are - for good reason lol.

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[-] ipkpjersi@lemmy.ml 55 points 1 day ago

I doubt that there are enough people shooting enough guns often enough for it to be more than just trace exposures, it likely must be something else.

[-] MutilationWave@lemmy.world 42 points 1 day ago

It's regular old religion, shit culture, and propaganda just like it always is.

[-] Wiz@midwest.social 11 points 1 day ago

Plus, Gen-X and Boomers were exposed to a lot of lead.

Gasoline types used to be "Regular or Unleaded" and Regular, I think, and required a"special" engine.

[-] SkunkWorkz@lemmy.world 9 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago)

Also fungicides/pesticides can cause dementia. One of the first signs of early onset dementia is loss of empathy. So not very surprising many old rural folks have become jaded people

[-] JordanZ@lemmy.world 9 points 1 day ago

Small aircraft still use 100LL fuel…(LL is low lead)

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[-] Revan343@lemmy.ca 5 points 22 hours ago

Don't forget the deliberate effort by Republicans to nerf the public education system

[-] MutilationWave@lemmy.world 4 points 22 hours ago

Nerf is too nice a way to say it. They want to abolish the Department of Education. Their goal is that only the children of the rich will get anything close to a good education.

[-] Yawweee877h444@lemmy.world 4 points 22 hours ago

It's by design. Keep people stupid, and use religion for its intended use, a tool for control.

We the masses are the foundation for their wealth and power.

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[-] LovableSidekick@lemmy.world 18 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago)

Yes it's actually a pretty ignorant idea. Lead exposure is more likely from car exhaust from leaded gas, which has been severely limited since the 80s.

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[-] roofuskit@lemmy.world 89 points 1 day ago

Most Americans don't even own guns. A minority of Americans own lots of guns.

[-] Corkyskog@sh.itjust.works 45 points 1 day ago

And like 9 out of 10 people who own guns go to the range less than a few times a year.

More than half of gun owners have never gone to a range beyond what might have been part of a state's pistol permitting process.

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[-] ExcursionInversion@lemmy.world 16 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago)

Yeah, but I read something on reddit that says Americans all have guns and love shooting them. So they must all have brain damage

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[-] chiliedogg@lemmy.world 19 points 23 hours ago

Most Americans don't shoot very often, even if they own a bunch of guns.

Part of it is that ammo is just expensive. A trip to the range can burn hundreds of dollars in ammo in just a few minutes.

[-] Embarrassingskidmark@lemmy.world 9 points 21 hours ago

What a fucking retarded post

[-] gamermanh@lemmy.dbzer0.com 65 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago)

Post reads like some violently uninformed person making a lot of... I don't want to say racist cuz that's not really right, but similar sentiments about Americans

Y'all are stupid cuz of your guns

Is about as stupid a thought as possible as you're you're claiming we are because of shooting guns and the fact that anyone in the comments is taking it seriously shows y'all have the exact same level of critical thinking skills as those you're insulting

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[-] irotsoma@lemmy.world 9 points 22 hours ago

At first glance I thought this post was a bit facetious, but after thinking about it and reviewing some research around people manufacturing the bullets and how it affects them and understanding that detonating them in confined spaces probably is just as if not more problematic. And if you have a job that requires you to do it often, say a cop, does that create even more of an effect? Lead exposure causes a loss of impulse control as well as intelligence effects. Could that be one reason why cops are so much more violent than the average person? I'd love to see a study on lead content of blood in cops, especially ones who murder people they capture, but unfortunately, the NRA is probably too powerful to allow that to happen. And conservatives hate masks, so I doubt it would be easy to convince cops to wear them while practicing.

[-] PolyLlamaRous@lemmy.world 36 points 1 day ago

I see where you are going, but you probably should focus less on the guns. Most Americans don't regularly shoot guns, even those that have them. A whole lot also don't own any. But lead is all over in shit like water pipes. Other heavy metals and chemicals are present in higher levels than allowed elsewhere. Also full metal jacket is much more common than it used to be which reduces the lead particles when shooting.

[-] MutilationWave@lemmy.world 8 points 1 day ago

As far as lead water pipes go, they're not nearly as dangerous as they're made out to be. The lead quickly bonds to things in the water creating a layer of corrosion which means the lead doesn't really get in the water.

Don't get me wrong, they should still all be replaced.

[-] TrickDacy@lemmy.world 62 points 1 day ago

Was the majority of the German voting public lead-poisoned in the 30s? I don't think lead was even put in gas then. Those Germans almost certainly were not lead poisoned, and they put a monster into power.

I get wanting a good explanation, but in reality, it's a simple but unsatisfying explanation. It applies to every country and every population in every era. People are fuckin' stupid. Carlin said it best:

"Think of how stupid the average person is, and realize half of them are stupider than that."

[-] SlopppyEngineer@lemmy.world 25 points 1 day ago

The German population went through serious economic troubles. Wheelbarrows of cash to buy stuff. Economically troubled people get angry and revolt, and in democratic systems that means firstly voting for the extreme candidates, the ones with a good story. Anger shuts down critical thinking and they don't think about other consequences of their vote.

That's how many elections went in a lot of counties in the last few years too.

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[-] GreenKnight23@lemmy.world 119 points 1 day ago

haven't shot a gun in at least 20 years and I'm retarded as shit. so....

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[-] Kit@lemmy.blahaj.zone 200 points 1 day ago

I think far more people are exposed to lead in water than from guns. Even gun-owning Americans don't go to the range that often.

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[-] ShittyBeatlesFCPres@lemmy.world 47 points 1 day ago

The vast majority of Americans don’t own/shoot guns. There’s 300 million guns because some people own multiple.

Source: https://www.pewresearch.org/social-trends/2017/06/22/the-demographics-of-gun-ownership/

Also, the British literally voted to have a worse economy. We don’t have a monopoly on headassery.

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[-] Cris_Color@lemmy.world 61 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago)

This seems like reaching for the most esoteric and niche explanation to a fairly simple phenomenon.

America's school system sucks, and the anti-authoritarian nature of a culture formed by rejecting monarchy has been coopted to convince people that science and reason are authority figures you ought to fight back against.

The vast majority of Americans aren't gun owners, and the vast majority of gun owners don't shoot very often. You haven't provided evidence for Americans being incapable of critical thinking, but you want evidence for why guns aren't the source of american stupidity.

This is a very silly post. 😅

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[-] uriel238@lemmy.blahaj.zone 26 points 1 day ago

Some of us were around when leaded gasoline was the norm, and every municipality had a crime rate drop that corellates to their unleaded gas mandate.

Then there's lead in candy which was a problem until the FDA shut that down.

There still is lead in fuel, and so kids who play in urban playgrounds are supposed to wash their hands before eating anything.

So if our people have detectable elevated lead levels (it has a plenty-long bio half life), I'd question automotive exhaust and industry before worrying about guns at the range. Unless someone is squeezing off a hundred rounds a day.

[-] qantravon@lemmy.world 67 points 1 day ago

Or, you know, the lead that we put into the air for decades burning leaded gasoline...

Even though we've (mostly) stopped doing that, the effects are cumulative, and there are still plenty of people alive who were around when that was still a thing.

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[-] intensely_human@lemm.ee 3 points 21 hours ago

Yeah but you oughta see the other guy

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this post was submitted on 21 Dec 2024
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