218
submitted 11 months ago by Tachanka@hexbear.net to c/memes@hexbear.net
top 50 comments
sorted by: hot top controversial new old
[-] FuckyWucky@hexbear.net 58 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago)

First world social democracy has only been in decline since dissolution of USSR and rise of neoliberalism. The threat of socialist revolution kept capitalists from being too exploitative. It is unsustainable, capitalists will want their power back. Look at what happened to NHS in the U.K.

Also 'freedoms' for private enterprises and 'rights' for workers are straight up contradictory.

[-] Tachanka@hexbear.net 46 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago)

Exactly. Marx said "between equal rights, force decides." We have a class dictatorship of the bourgeoisie. It doesn't matter if your form of government is a so-called "multiparty liberal democracy" or a "parliamentary representative republic" when 95+% of the people who hold office are bourgeois and primarily make money through owning means of production or speculating on financial assets, rather than selling their labor power like everyone else. If the bourgeoisie guarantees rights for the worker, it is only because they have cynically calculated that it is in their long term interests to allow some crumbs to fall from their table. They will withdraw those "rights" as soon as they see fit. As soon as capitalism's immune system detects a threat. You can only get so far with liberal democracy, trade unions, and worker-owned cooperatives, because, while those things are nice, and certainly better than feudalism, you still fundamentally have a bourgeois class-dictatorship where all the so called "rights" of the worker are granted by the bourgeoisie and enforced through their class's monopoly on violence. They decide when rules can be bent, broken, changed, or ignored. The police and the military exist purely to enforce their ownership over the means and conditions of production.

[-] paholg@lemm.ee 4 points 11 months ago

What if the private enterprises are worker coops?

[-] Amaltheamannen@lemmy.ml 42 points 11 months ago

A worker coop taking care of its workers will always be less profitable than an exploitative capitalist company, and therefore out-competed. It's what happens when you design all of society around profit.

[-] paholg@lemm.ee 4 points 11 months ago

First, there is no rule that a worker co-op taking care of its workers will be less profitable than an exploitative company. At first glance, it seems reasonable. But it's not a truism. For example, a well-taken care of worker is likely to be more productive than one who feels exploited.

Second, profits are not how companies compete. Profits are by definition the extra money that goes into the owners' pockets. Companies compete in many different ways; quality, marketing, price, etc. The fact that there are many successful worker co-ops in capitalist nations should provide some evidence here.

Third, one could imagine a nation that mandates that all companies are worker co-ops. They would still be profit-driven private companies, but would be controlled by the workers (who would also be the ones saying the profit).

[-] CyborgMarx@hexbear.net 40 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago)

You're missing the point that those successful coops are only successful to the extent they are profitable within the larger capitalist framework, which means worker consideration will be secondary and most importantly they have to compete with capitalist enterprises that engage in heavy exploitation and wage suppression

As long as the capitalist profit motive survives it will in general win against those firms that don't engage in exploitation and wage suppression and limit the growth of competing coops, it's creates a ceiling for genuine worker friendly coops and ties them to the greater capitalist network in the form of regulating capitals

Profitability is the be all and end all of capitalist enterprise, the methods of competition are irrelevant (quality, marketing, price, etc) unless they produce sufficient profit, otherwise from the logic of capitalism there's no point in initiating the enterprise in the first place, this is the direct consequence of capitalist ownership of the means of production

Your mistake is assuming capitalist markets are a universal phenomenon that can be controled by all classes, that's not true, capitalist markets only exist as the result of a specific form of property relations, the logic that drives workers and the logic that drives capitalists are not the same, workers want their wages to raise, capitalists want profit, wages cut into profits, do you see the contradiction of the coop capitalism you're imagining?

Coops can't grow when regulating capitals limit their potential, and workers won't self-raise their wages if it means the over-arching profitability of the company is at stake hence threatening unemployment, in the world you're imagining the workers would still want to do away with this self-shackling profit system that limits their ability to grow and sustain themselves

load more comments (7 replies)
load more comments (1 replies)
[-] CyborgMarx@hexbear.net 15 points 11 months ago

What you're thinking of is just one of numerous potential theoretical transitional states of socialism or a Frankenstein form of super military Keynesianism

But it's not something that's ever likely to happen, capitalists and the liberal states who serve them would outlaw workers coops before if ever got to a point they threaten capitalist property relations, that's the whole point of controlling the state, to prevent a hypothetical like the one you just advanced

[-] FuckyWucky@hexbear.net 15 points 11 months ago

then its not a private enterprise, its a worker coop.

[-] paholg@lemm.ee 3 points 11 months ago

No? A private enterprise means it's not run by the state. Worker coops absolutely are private enterprises.

[-] FuckyWucky@hexbear.net 23 points 11 months ago

I mean okay if you want to be a debate nerd about it. There are a variety of definitions for the term "private enterprise"

https://www.lawinsider.com/dictionary/private-enterprise

[-] paholg@lemm.ee 3 points 11 months ago

Half those definitions agree with me, and the other half say the definition is in some external material not linked to on that site.

I don't want to be a "debate nerd". You're the one being argumentative.

[-] SuperNovaCouchGuy2@hexbear.net 4 points 11 months ago

Well shucks, Chuck, you don't want to be one but you are one.

[-] Yllych@hexbear.net 14 points 11 months ago

a collection of worker coops but operating through the medium of the market?

load more comments (1 replies)
[-] Tachanka@hexbear.net 6 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago)

I'm gonna copypaste what I said somewhere else ITT:

You can only get so far with liberal democracy, trade unions, and worker-owned cooperatives, because, while those things are nice, and certainly better than feudalism, you still fundamentally have a bourgeois class-dictatorship where all the so called "rights" of the worker are granted by the bourgeoisie and enforced through their class's monopoly on violence. They decide when rules can be bent, broken, changed, or ignored. The police and the military exist purely to enforce their ownership over the means and conditions of production.

TL;DR Worker Owned Co-Ops exist embedded in a capitalist economy and are subject to its laws

[-] RuthlessCriticism@hexbear.net 5 points 11 months ago

In that case, Uncle Sam will do everything in his power to crush them. See Huawei.

[-] CyborgMarx@hexbear.net 38 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago)

You really have to ignore the entire history of capitalist theory and history to pretend this is remotely a coherent take, besides the ancaps, social liberals are the most utopian of all liberal sects, they are willfully blind to the contradictions of class, property ownership, and the functions of the state

They fundamentally don't understand the social basis for the ideology they claim to uphold, it was only with the rise of socialism that liberals began to construct these social fantasies of class harmony and submission under capitalism, in the old days they were more sober about this shit as Adam Smith readily admitted

Civil government, so far as it is instituted for the security of property, is in reality instituted for the defense of the rich against the poor, or of those who have some property against those who have none at all

But avarice and ambition in the rich, in the poor the hatred of labour and the love of present ease and enjoyment, are the passions which prompt to invade property, passions much more steady in their operation, and much more universal in their influence. Wherever there is great property, there is great inequality. For one very rich man, there must be at least five hundred poor, and the affluence of the few supposes the indigence of the many. The affluence of the rich excites the indignation of the poor, who are often both driven by want, and prompted by envy, to invade his possessions. It is only under the shelter of the civil magistrate that the owner of that valuable property, which is acquired by the labour of many years, or perhaps of many successive generations, can sleep a single night in security. He is at all times surrounded by unknown enemies, whom, though he never provoked, he can never appease, and from whose injustice he can be protected only by the powerful arm of the civil magistrate continually held up to chastise it. The acquisition of valuable and extensive property, therefore, necessarily requires the establishment of civil government. Where there is no property, or at least none that exceeds the value of two or three days labour, civil government is not so necessary. (WN V.ii.2)

[-] Tachanka@hexbear.net 35 points 11 months ago

regarding the Adam Smith quote, I love the number of Adam Smith quotes that sound like Marx quotes. you can really break a person's brain with those.

[-] Bartsbigbugbag@lemmy.ml 17 points 11 months ago

Till there be property there can be no government, the very end of which is to secure wealth, and to defend the rich from the poor. In this age of shepherds, if one man possessed 500 oxen, and another had none at all, unless there were some government to secure them to him, he would not be allowed to possess them.”

Adam Smith, “ Lectures on Jurisprudence” 1766

[-] emizeko@hexbear.net 32 points 11 months ago

guaranteeing rights for Workers

and how is that going, hmmm?

guaranteeing Healthcare and Services

lol. lmao

[-] leninmaycry@hexbear.net 27 points 11 months ago

I'm not the biggest fan of slavery. My preferred form of slavery is present among the slaveowners...

[-] Awoo@hexbear.net 20 points 11 months ago

This is one of the best posts I've seen in a while.

[-] UlyssesT@hexbear.net 20 points 11 months ago

Boomer capitalization Detected, where words are capitalized for arbitrarily chosen Emphasis with no academic considerations because only wokes care about Literacy. grillman

[-] DamarcusArt@lemmygrad.ml 9 points 11 months ago

Don't you Know? The more Words you capitalize In the middle of your sentences, the More Academic and therefore Correct you Are!

[-] Egon@hexbear.net 6 points 11 months ago

Might also just not have English as a first language. My autocorrect does the same when I write English on it

[-] UlyssesT@hexbear.net 9 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago)

I see it enough on clearly WASPy boomer small business tyrant printout signs that say stuff like "because ❄ Snowflakes ❄ want Everything handed to them and dont want to Work anymore the price of our combo lunch special is up $0.10. Thank a liberal Today!!!! 🤣 🤣 🤣 🤣 🤣 🤣

[-] Egon@hexbear.net 5 points 11 months ago

Oh yeah for sure, I don't know why your boomers do it, but I'd just like to say that when you encounter users doing it here for example, it might also just be that they're not Anglos.

[-] WaterBowlSlime@lemmygrad.ml 7 points 11 months ago

Out of curiosity, what language capitalizes words like this? I know German capitalizes every noun, but this post seems arbitrary in the way it uses uppercase letters.

[-] Egon@hexbear.net 6 points 11 months ago

I honestly don't know, my phone does it for english, but it doesn't do it for my native language - because we don't do it in Danish. I think it's just some sort of "foreigner" setting inherent to a lot of keyboards on phones

[-] WaterBowlSlime@lemmygrad.ml 4 points 11 months ago

So your keyboard makes you type with an accent? lmao

[-] Egon@hexbear.net 3 points 11 months ago
[-] WittyProfileName2@hexbear.net 6 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago)

Almost as bad as the ones that CAPITALISE random WORDS in a SENTENCE like they're writing the a clickbait YouTube TITLE.

[-] UlyssesT@hexbear.net 3 points 11 months ago

Ever heard chud radio when a chud is driving somewhere? It's even spoken like that. frothingfash

[-] WittyProfileName2@hexbear.net 3 points 11 months ago

Chud radio hosts in the UK are all inbred aristocrats, they all speak with recieved pronounciation because they think it makes them sound smart.

load more comments (3 replies)
[-] sicklemode@hexbear.net 18 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago)

Fuckhead vampire. Suck the vast majority of the planet dry for a few small yards with high fences international-community-1international-community-2 and those privileged enough to reap the rewards. Also deny those same supposed "rights and services for the public" to that same majority they feed on.

Is it perfect? No, certainly not, and I don't want it to be. I like it just the way it is. It has its flaws depending on Class and Government, and I'm in a very privileged position so I'd much prefer it over communism smuglord

Communism will win and you cannot stop it.

My preferred form of Capitalism is present in all first-world nations: guaranteeing rights for Workers and Individuals, Healthcare and Services for the Public, and Freedoms for Individuals

Those so-called "first-world" nations have already lost or are actively losing all their social safety nets, affordable housing opportunities, manufacturing base, and public services to privatization and outsourcing. What you mean is you're privileged and likely wealthy enough to be in an exceptional position of being able to benefit from whatever's left of them. They're also all cracking down on dissent brought about by civil unrest, and arbitrarily oppressing vulnerable groups in an ever escalating war on happiness and prosperity. What freedoms?

These posts do nothing but further antagonize and gaslight people who know full well their material and social conditions directly contradict your sick-to-death narratives about "capitalist exceptionalism".

[-] Tofu_Lewis@hexbear.net 17 points 11 months ago

These doofers have never had to experience how costly realizing those "rights" under bourgeois capitalism is.

[-] axont@hexbear.net 14 points 11 months ago

People who say things like this often have investments in real estate or something. Being a private landowner makes a person's brain go haywire.

[-] iByteABit@lemm.ee 10 points 11 months ago

It has its flaws depending on Class

Literally saying ''not my problem''

load more comments
view more: next ›
this post was submitted on 03 Sep 2023
218 points (100.0% liked)

memes

22613 readers
541 users here now

dank memes

Rules:

  1. All posts must be memes and follow a general meme setup.

  2. No unedited webcomics.

  3. Someone saying something funny or cringe on twitter/tumblr/reddit/etc. is not a meme. Post that stuff in !the_dunk_tank@www.hexbear.net, it's a great comm.

  4. Va*sh posting is haram and will be removed.

  5. Follow the code of conduct.

  6. Tag OC at the end of your title and we'll probably pin it for a while if we see it.

  7. Recent reposts might be removed.

  8. Tagging OC with the hexbear watermark is praxis.

  9. No anti-natalism memes. See: Eco-fascism Primer

founded 3 years ago
MODERATORS