this post was submitted on 15 Apr 2024
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[–] notceps@hexbear.net 11 points 7 months ago (1 children)

Not really, like if your audience is just debate perverts then debate away but most people aren't debate perverts and are much more receptive to someone saying "Stop doing Genocide" than someone that writes 10 Paragraphs, like the TL:DR thing is real so actually keeping it short and concise is more effective if you can use it, which in this case you absolutely can, like call me anti-intellectual but not everything needs to be examined three times over especially not something as blatantly obvious as 'Genocide bad' it's the same as going 'Nazis bad' almost everyone understands this and they'll agree with you. If they disagree with you on the genocide part then you argue that part and have them deny of defend genocide which puts them in a losing position because again everyone understands that genocide is bad.

[–] InappropriateEmote@hexbear.net 13 points 7 months ago (1 children)

Different tactics work on different people. I was swayed from liberalism to communism much more by long form argumentation, stuff I had to read and really think about and examine, before concluding that my liberal beliefs were the garbage they were. Just saying "bad thing bad" to me would have made me roll my eyes and think you didn't have any valid arguments. And to be honest, current me doesn't blame past me for thinking that. Maybe that works on some people, but again, that's why there are different tactics. Yours is no more valid than VILenin's, and were it me on the other side, yours would be less valid than his by far. That's not me calling you anti-intellectual, but neither should you act like using reasoned argumentation is too high brow to influence anyone who isn't already a committed pro-Palestinian communist.

because again everyone understands that genocide is bad.

Clearly they don't understand that it's bad enough, seeing as this whole conversation is centered around the "calculus of deciding that a genocide is an acceptable trade-off." Many people who do recognize genocide is bad, still think "well, it's a complicated situation" or they have fallen for the both-sides lie and think that the Palestinians would be genociding Israelis if the zionists weren't doing it first. These are the kinds of lies that would be good to disabuse them of. Which is something we can do in numerous cases, since it has happened, and one effective way of doing that is to used reasoned argumentation with healthy rhetoric. Which is what VILenin was talking about. Coming in and saying "Nah, it's useless" or "that tactic doesn't work, but my short pithy one does" is weird and unhelpful. I'm not sure why you insist on putting down what he came up with.

[–] notceps@hexbear.net 5 points 7 months ago

Sure different tactics work on different people, but there's more people that fall in some categories and more that fall in others, then there's also the fact that long form argumentation is a pretty contested space. Like think of all the lib youtuber, for every good analysis you have 10 Peter Zeihans enforcing lib thought. For every chapotraphouse you have 10 pod save america and so on and so on, and the lib shit is boosted and funded a ton more than the very tame communist/socialist stuff. And I'm sorry to tell you this but having a better argument does not win that space, just being around more does.

Clearly they don't understand that it's bad enough, seeing as this whole conversation is centered around the "calculus of deciding that a genocide is an acceptable trade-off."

This specifc person listens to some lib podcaster or twitch streamer or youtuber that prechewed them the long form argument that did the moral calculus, but that's not most people. There's really not that many people that go 'Well it's a complicated situation' exactly one person in my real life that brought that up and I asked them what's so complicated about genocide, and this person fucking loves long form argumentations because they love to listen to fucking Peter Zeihan and even read his book and likes to pretend they are informed. Most people don't watch some debatelord streamer, or youtuber or CNN 24/7 most people just go about their lives and when you tell the turbo-online lib that you aren't voting for genocide those people will not listen to the long form argumentation on why 'actually genocide is cool' they'll side with you because of course genocide is bad and by the time the other person has twisted themselves into a logic pretzel they'll have made up their mind.

I'm putting this thing down because it's a white room solution, like I don't know if you've met people but if you use words like hitlerian moral calculus you'll have lost people. Shit if you use neoliberalism you'll have lost people, guess what if you use a long form argument you'll end up using words people just don't know about and that's when you lose them, everyone knows genocide, everyone knows genocide is bad, there's really no need for anything longer than that.

There's a reason Lenin campaigned on:

Peace, Land and Bread

it's because it is easy and everyone understands it