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this post was submitted on 15 Feb 2024
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Yes.
I quite enjoy the Tom Clancy books, and some of the film adaptations, but know he is right wing and it comes through in the books.
Similar to J K Rowling. Terrible person in general but the books were enjoyable when growing up.
Far superior writers in the genre.
Alan Furst. Spy books set in the early days of WW2. For some reason they've been marketed as a series, but each book is a standalone with completely different characters. "Night Soldiers" and "Dark Star."
Dan Fesperman. "The Warlord's Son" is set in the days leading up to the US invasion of Afghanistan. Burnt out reporter and a self exiled Afghan search for bin Ladn.
Other things being technically superior doesn't mean a thing isn't worth your time, though. I listen to a lot of extremely talented musicians but a good chunk of my library could be learned in a Guitar 101 class, too
Back in the day, I started 'The Hunt For Red October' and noped out when the Soviet submarine commander wrote the KGB a litter telling them that he was stealing the most powerful weapon on Earth. It was so colossally stupid that I refused to read another line.
Unless you're telling me that you actually listen to Guitar 101 students making all sorts of errors.
Here's Ray Charles singing The Alphabet Song. Superior talent can take simple things and vastly improve them. Untalented people can take good ingredients and make an inedible mess.
https://youtu.be/JUMu3uB7VKQ
They Might Be Giants wrote, "The sun is a mass of incandescent gas..." Still a good song despite being wrong (yes I know they've "updated" it)
People love Marvel movies even though they're full of plot holes and formulaic stories but I'm not gonna say they should stop in favor of films which aren't, ya know? Instead of saying "stop watching that crap," say "you might also like [similar but 'better' film]"
For the record, I've never read a Clancy novel so I have no horse in this race
It's apples and oranges. No one expects to get accurate scientific data in a pop song, and no one expects a comic book movie to be realistic.
People accept a lot of inaccuracies in a James Bond movie, but they'd feel cheated if Bond suddenly had the power to time travel or turn into a lion.
Since you never read the book I have nothing to add.
It's not all that different. And I don't think whether or not I've read Clancy is relevant here when my point is "people like different things about art and you shouldn't pretend your preference is objectively better"
It's totally cool to like things BECAUSE they're hyper realistic but it's also totally cool to not care about that. I am much more in-line with you in that regard...inaccuracies take me out of stories...But others aren't bothered. Why tell them their preference is bad?
That's the original comment I was responding to.
The books I cited are superior because they are not full of hard Right ideology.
They are also, in my opinion, much better written and far more enjoyable.
If you'd bothered to try and understand what I was saying, you wouldn't have wasted all our time.
The books are better for the person who posted. Objectively better because they aren't right wing screeds.
I read and understood both comments. My point is that "there are superior writers" doesn't mean the inferior ones aren't worth reading.
And that's not what objectively means, dude.
Objectively means that any disinterested person can pick out the quality. If OP were looking for red shoes, black shoes would be objectively the wrong choice.
It doesn't matter if you like ice fishing or not, objectively the Sahara Desert is not a good place to go ice fishing.
I noted the difference between my subjective enjoyment of the authors, and the objective fact that the books weren't right wing.
Are you still confused?
Personal enjoyment is not something you can quantify in a way that allows for objectivity.
Chess is an OBJECTIVELY more complex game than checkers. That does not mean that it's objectively more enjoyable because complexity isn't how everyone ranks their enjoyment.
I like your example of ice fishing in the Sahara because it demonstrates how you don't understand that entertainment is subjective.
Let people like what they like for the reasons they like it.
Are you still on your high horse?
That completely ignores what the original poster wrote, and I never said it did.
They wanted books without Right Wing ideology. I gave them some examples of books without Right Wing ideology.
If a person says they want a musical and I give them a documentary with no music at all, I'd be objectively wrong.
Are you still confused?
Buddy, reread the original post. They said they enjoy Tom Clancy novels despite his politics - they didn't request suggestions for books without right wing ideologies.
Your examples continue to be irrelevant. I don't have to ask if you're confused because clearly you are
You've given up on your original point, because I showed that it was an incorrect assumption on your part. I'll repeat. A person's subjective tastes can be viewed objectively. If a person says they want to watch a musical right now, anyone can objectively judge if a movie is a musical or not.
Now you're upset because I read the original commnet, and suggested that the person might like to read some books I'd enjoyed.
As far as I can tell, you've never read any of the books involved.
The only thing I'm confused about is why you're in such a lather.
My original point was "art that is technically inferior to other art is still enjoyable" and then you talking about how a Clancy book was bad because of a technical error. You've brought up the accuracy of things multiple times when we're talking about enjoyment of art.
Up until your "are you still confused?" bullshit I thought we were having a friendly conversation. So sorry to have rustled your jimmies. I'm impressed that you've so keenly observed that I haven't read any Tom Clancy novels, though, after I told you "I've never read a Clancy novel" in my first or second reply. You're sharper than you let on!
tl, dr
I'm very saddened she shows these strong hateful opinions now. The books and films were so much a part of my childhood and I still really enjoy the whole world they've created. And watching her earlier interviews, she seemed like a nice, interesting, smart, softly spoken person, with a love for my city. Also through indirect personal relations, she was quite kind to us.
I don't think it really came off as much in his original books, or maybe I was just younger and more naive when I read them and didn't notice. But all the new stuff written under his name is just un-fucking-bearable.
Yea the books with Jack Ryan Jr as the main character aren't as good.