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Basic Constitutional Law
(lemmy.world)
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this post was submitted on 23 Dec 2023
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The people who think Trump should be allowed to run in spite of being an insurrectionist are the same people who support barring other justice-involved people from merely voting in an election
I'm a little out of the loop, serious question, was he ever actually convicted of organizing an insurrection?
Edit: I'm not an American but apparently asking questions makes you "the enemy" over there. Jesus Christ your country is fucked.
There's no requirement that he was previously convicted of insurrection - that's a separate charge and carries a higher bar. The constitution only requires that the court concludes as part of this case that he was involved in an insurrection. And there's a wealth of evidence showing that he was so the courts will almost certainly come to that conclusion.
Are you arguing that the judges who concluded he organized an insurrection did so in error? None of the confederates who asked their that disability be removed by vote argued that they didn't need to do so because they had not been so convicted.
There is a process for deciding if criminal behavior happened, it's called a conviction. We've seen judges make mistakes assessing the reality of criminal behavior all the time in Civil Asset Forfeiture cases where the standard of conviction isn't required.
Because those confederate involvement in the Confederacy was a matter of public record. If we had fought a war against a military force Trump had organized, and that force surrendered; then we wouldn't need a conviction.
The insurrection and Trumps role in it is a matter of public record. He doesn't dispute the facts of the case he just disagrees with whether his actions are illegal and what the consequences are. The judge's disagree.
Out of the loop my ass
No, and that is one of many real and legitimate issues with the legal theory of using the 14th Amendment to bar him from the Presidency.
I thought the 14th doesn't mention convictions by design.
The silence as to convictions is certainly not by design, the drafters’ committee notes are clear on that much. Indeed, the jurisprudential history of Section 3 is one that requires such a finding.
Cases are seperate. A federal judge already ruled he was guilty of a insurrection. They stated that the removal of them from the ballot needed to go through the proper channels. Colorado's supreme court (1 possible proper channel) then ruled he should not be on the ballot.
Every state has control over their own elections but can be directed by the federal level. The federal case is moving forward, just slowly as per following all proper procedure and people fighting to slow it down.
Same reason there is no criminal charges for fraud in NY at this time. He was found guilty in a civil court which showed the fraud existed, and made it so fraud charges should be an easy case in a criminal court.
In the riot's aftermath, the US House of Representatives impeached the then-president on a charge of "incitement of insurrection".
Had the US Senate voted to convict him, it would have had the option to take a second, simple-majority vote to bar him from ever serving in office again.
But that never happened: the Senate failed to reach the two-thirds majority required to convict Mr Trump, so there was no second vote.
Source
-Still, the judge concluded Trump’s “conduct and words were the factual cause of, and a substantial contributing factor” to the attack on the Capitol. She found that Trump “engaged in an insurrection on Jan. 6, 2021 through incitement”.
The judge apparently had issue with the wording in the constitution, stating that he wouldnt have been an officer who swore an oath
Which to me is an oversight in the creation of the amendment but rather obvious the intent. Which is why the Supreme Court should specify the intent would include the commander in chief.
1st definition that comes up when I search the term:
The ruling is heavy on opinion and low on facts.
https://www.npr.org/2021/02/10/966396848/read-trumps-jan-6-speech-a-key-part-of-impeachment-trial
"I know that everyone here will soon be marching over to the Capitol building to peacefully and patriotically make your voices heard."
Doesn't sound inciting.
Or to put it a different way. Thid sets a very low bar for future removal of candidates from the ballot.
“We’re going to walk down to the Capitol, and we’re going to cheer on our brave senators, and congressmen and women,”
“We’re probably not going to be cheering so much for some of them because you’ll never take back our country with weakness. You have to show strength, and you have to be strong.”
Some of Trump’s fiercest allies also made incendiary statements at the rally. “Let’s have trial by combat,” said Trump’s lawyer Rudy Giuliani, warming up the crowd for Trump.
“.@senatemajldr and Republican Senators have to get tougher, or you won’t have a Republican Party anymore. We won the Presidential Election, by a lot. FIGHT FOR IT. Don’t let them take it away!” he tweeted Dec. 18. Dec. 12: “WE HAVE JUST BEGUN TO FIGHT!!!” Trump said in another tweet. Dec. 19: Trump tweeted his praise for a report by his adviser Peter Navarro alleging election fraud: “A great report by Peter. Statistically impossible to have lost the 2020 Election. Big protest in D.C. on January 6th. Be there, will be wild!”
Dec. 26: Trump tweeted: “The ‘Justice’ Department and the FBI have done nothing about the 2020 Presidential Election Voter Fraud, the biggest SCAM in our nation’s history, despite overwhelming evidence. They should be ashamed. History will remember. Never give up. See everyone in D.C. on January 6th.”
Dec. 27: “See you in Washington, DC, on January 6th. Don’t miss it. Information to follow!” Trump tweeted. Jan. 1: “The BIG Protest Rally in Washington, D.C., will take place at 11.00 A.M. on January 6th. Locational details to follow. StopTheSteal!” Trump tweeted. Jan. 4: At a rally in Georgia the day before the Senate runoffs, Trump repeated his grievances about his own election. He spoke about a continued fight, both for himself and the Senate.
“If the liberal Democrats take the Senate and the White House — and they’re not taking this White House — we’re going to fight like hell, I’ll tell you right now,” Trump said.
“We’re going to take it back,” Trump said.
“Our country has had enough,” Trump told his supporters. “We will not take it anymore and that’s what this is all about. To use a favorite term that all of you people really came up with, we will stop the steal.”
The crowd later chanted: “Fight for Trump! Fight for Trump! Fight for Trump!” Trump thanked them.
Trump praised the crowd for traveling from across the nation and for “the extraordinary love.”
“We’re gathered together in the heart of our nation’s capital for one very, very basic and simple reason: to save our democracy,” Trump said.
Source: https://www.poynter.org/fact-checking/2021/a-timeline-of-what-donald-trump-said-before-the-capitol-riot/
Now do you want to discuss what was done to stop reinforcements from arriving to a fight to stop the stealing of democracy to ensure peace and saftey of the senators?
Fight like hell is not an off limit phrase.
I hear Trump disagreeing with the result, stupid and incorrect, but not insurrection.
Not sure why reinforcements are relevant given that tge Trump supporting police let the protestors into the Capitol building.
Reinforcements mattered because either you stop them from going in (smashing windows, breaking through barriers etc) or you back down because you are far out numbered and surrendering is your best option. There was an active session going on. Everyone knew what was going on in that building. It isn't a protest to break in, that is an insurgency at best, and an organized revolt at worst.
I don't know why I am bothering. You are choosing to ignore and downplay their actions.
Not until he realized they didn't accomplish their mission did he start making more comments about leaving or being peaceful.
The Trump quote
"marching over to the Capitol building to peacefully and patriotically make your voices heard."
Was made before the riot.
I'm not downplaying the actions, although most (not all) videos of people in the building could not be described as storming. E.g. Doors were opened from inside.
But the main point I'm saying that pinning insurrection on Trump specifically is not easy.
Taking the easy route now lowers the bar for claims of insurrection in the future, encouraging fascism.
Just as a polite heads up, this is basically all incorrect, with regard to legal procedure and process, at least as it applies to the topic being discussed here.
then explain why these are incorrect, make your case
You're wrong.
Yeah, I totally remember how Trump led the charge up the Capitol steps, the whole time shouting "the tree of liberty is watered with the blood of tyrants!!"
Yes, apparently that's the ONLY way anyone can ever start an insurrection. Damn your astute logic. If only everyone can be as flawlessly intelligent as you. All he did was plan with the Proud Boys to help rile people up and direct them towards the capital; privately reach out and pressure state election administrators to lie and overturn election results; claim that he was cheated and lied to everyone for weeks prior to Jan 6th, effectively building a political bonfire that he planned to light on Jan. 6th; give a speech where he helped to incite a mob and direct them towards the capital steps, with the Proud Boys helping to lead the chargea and effectively direct the crowds anger; and even actually tried to march to the Capital himself to lead the charge. But other than that, he did absolutely nothing. God damn, if we could only be so smart as you.
...and his counter argument is going to be based on due process and arguing that because he wasn't openly engaged in insurrection that any accusation that he should be disqualified should have to be proven by due process of law.
The sad thing is, that's a totally reasonable take. Which is why his legal team is also going to delay as hard as possible, until they can argue that still having the trial prior to the election is tantamount to election interference and it should be postponed until afterwards.
Because the only chance he has of getting away with any of it is getting elected or getting a GOP president who will pardon him.