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Israel's military tells UN in Gaza: ask Hamas for fuel
(www.reuters.com)
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this post was submitted on 25 Oct 2023
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I feel for the civilians caught in the middle. Now is not the time to be hard headed about asking a terrorist group to do what’s right. Obviously they don’t care and the civilians are being punished too. Being callous about their suffering doesn’t solve the situation… it just feeds into the terrorist narrative.
Sorry, "now is not the time"? When is the time, then?
Idk maybe when there’s not a huge humanitarian crisis. Gotta deal with the humanitarian crisis first or find somewhere for these people to go with actual resources for them. I wouldn’t want to be operated on in a hospital without electricity or anaesthesia, and I’m certainly not wishing that on civilians here.
Asking despotic governments in charge to do what’s right never works. Why should civilians be punished?
Good questions you are asking.
Your argument essentially boils down to this: Israeli civilians are worth less than Palestinian civilians. You didn’t write it like this, but is the logical consequence of what you are asking.
You essentially want to allow Hamas to steal even more fuel that is then used for Rocket attacks. And no, those rockets are not harmless, they are made to kill and maim civilians.
Let us entertain the thought, that Israel would allow fuel delivery for humanitarian purposes only. Who is going to defend that fuel against Hamas within the Gaza Strip? You?
The irony is that all this fluff is you justifying why Israeli citizens are worth more. Just because terrorists kill civilians doesn’t give one the right to callously allow the death of yet more innocent civilians.
They both matter, which is what we’re saying when we speak out against Israel’s policy of collective punishment.
That's not what the argument boils down to. They didn't write it like that because that wasn't a position they were taking. You wrote it like that because you want that to be the case. That says more about you and your character.
Civilians should not be used as fodder by either side.
Do you disagree?
Well the logical step forward would be a negotiated peace that includes lifting the blockade so Gazans don't have a reason to launch rocket attacks. That was the idea in 2008 and 2012, only a country whose name starts with Israel didn't follow through with it. As seen from this attack, the current Israeli policy on Palestine is a colossal failure on multiple levels, so something needs to change,
And if say, the blockade is lifted and even more rockets start to be delivered and fired at Israel. What would happen in the negotiated peace?
The blockade would be reinstated, with Gazans being told that it'll only be lifted if Hamas is replaced, would be the logical step towards peace. But we've already had two of these before; we don't need to do what-ifs. Hamas followed the 2012 ceasefire for more than a year even though Israel showed no signs of lifting the blockade or otherwise following the ceasefire.
Force Saudi Arabia, Jordan, Egypt, and Turkey to pay $1M to Israel for every rocket launched by Gaza and the blockade would be lifted tomorrow.
The issue is that Hamas continues to stockpile weapons, and the weakness of the Iron Dome system is in the number of projectiles that it can respond to. The system can be overwhelmed by constant fire (that's what happened in 2012 and 2014 that sparked the conflicts). The blockade slows how quickly Hamas can collect that many weapons and decreases the amount of conflict that those rockets will cause.
The blockade is the source of the modern Gaza-Israel conflict. It's the reason there are rocket attacks in the first place.
The current blockade started in 2007 2 years after Israel pulled out of Gaza and Hamas took control. The after they pulled out in 2006 there were over 900 rocket attacks an increase from the 176 the year before.
The blockade started in response to rocket attacks.
-- edit added wiki link
No? It was turned into its current form in 2007. Gaza has been partially blockaded by Israel (harsh reduction, but not completely termination, of exports) since 2005, and got even worse in 2006.
They also withheld the PNA's tax income for more than a year, and as for the effects I'll let Wikipedia speak on my behalf.
*Honk*
Straw man. Five minute timeout.
The headline is about Israel telling the UN to ask Hamas for fuel. You're presupposing that Hamas is going to steal Hamas's own fuel from the UN.
You must be working for Hamas because you're certainly not doing Israel any favors with the quality of that rhetoric.
When Palestinians aren't being ethnically cleansed, would be a good start.
They aren't being ethnically cleansed, but I still don't think it's a good time.
Idk the forcible expulsion of millions of people from their ancestral home seems to fit the definition.
They not only aren't expelled, they literally cannot leave because no one will take them in.
Your position is that Palestinians in the northern Gaza Strip are not being told to leave their homes or risk being bombed to kingdom come?
Also how much land did Palestinians hold in 1968 vs today? Just wondering.
If your house catches on fire and the fire department tells you to evacuate, you are not being expelled. Gazans can come back north after the military operation. They aren't even being forced to leave at all - it's just a really bad idea to stick around where there will be city fighting.
Words have actual meanings.
Palestinians held zero land in 1968 because they never had any land in the first place. Also you mean 1967, or maybe 1966, if you mean while the area recognized as Palestine when it was currently Egypt and Jordan, respectively.
Nice use of the passive voice there. “If your house catches on fire”… and if the “firemen” in your analogy are lighting the fire, doesn’t your analogy break down a bit?
If your house is being bulldozed because terrorists snuck into your basement, and the military tells you to leave because they're going to bomb it, you are not being displaced and you are not being permanently removed from the area.
The bombing of Berlin in WW2 wasn't genocide and neither is this. Yep, people had to leave. And yet Berlin is currently a thriving metropolis.
Since parsing written language isn't really your thing, let me know if you need a more on-the-nose analogy to show how fucking dumb this argument you fell for actually is.
Historically when things like this happened they weren't allowed to come back. Israel has done this before (though not to this scale).
What? Israel has actively stated Gaza's territory would go down after the war, and there are honest to God pogroms going on right now in the West Bank (as if settlement wasn't already ethnic cleansing enough).