this post was submitted on 25 Aug 2026
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Actually pretty interesting. I think we're starting to creep up on the actual numbers, as far as you can measure such a thing. I think comphet keeps a lot of people who would otherwise fall somewhere on the bi/pan spectrum from ever experimenting and realizing it about themelves, and I bet that population is actually quite large. As far as transness goes, I would be willing to believe a number within the realm of ~3% to even 5%. I think further complicating this whole thing is that human sexuality and gender identity is a lot more nebulous than the very rigid, medically-originated terminology we use implies. A lot of the identity labels we use (homosexual, transsexual/transgender, etc) were originally medical diagnoses that were later transposed onto cultural identities, which carries a lot of baggage that I think has been left unaddressed, such as the rigidity of their definition, but that's probably for a post for another time. Anyway, just thought it was neat neat, especially the state queerness leaderboards.

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[–] none@hexbear.net 30 points 1 week ago (2 children)

I think further complicating this whole thing is that human sexuality and gender identity is a lot more nebulous than the very rigid, medically-originated terminology we use implies. A lot of the identity labels we use (homosexual, transsexual/transgender, etc) were originally medical diagnoses that were later transposed onto cultural identities, which carries a lot of baggage that I think has been left unaddressed, such as the rigidity of their definition

I have to step in with some historical defense here. Magnus Hirschfeld coined the terms (and initiated the modern understandings of) "transvestite", then "transsexual" to differentiate between gender and sexual variation. Prior to that, western euro/anglo/american ideas had more nebulous concepts like "urning" (his preference) or "invert" which correspond more to modern term like "queer" (without any of the political/confrontational overtones). Even though we have reasons for also cultivating the general term, the specifics are crucial and their introduction was and remains key.

Hirschfeld took great pains to avoid creating the ideas of any false dichotomies. Below I have a few paragraphs to demonstrate this. They are from Homosexuality of Men & Women (published in German in 1920, finally translated to English in 2000 by Michael Lombardi-Nash). The whole thing is about diagnosing, categorizing, but more importantly conceptualizing sex and gender variation. There are some wacky specific ideas in there; a lot of the more general concepts were very strong and have quite a modern flavor to them but you need to read through the language to see what he is trying to say. I hope these make sense out of context, I didn't want to paste pages and pages although everything before and after is interesting especially to think it was published over a century ago and was well-known about contemporaneously. This was not obscure ivory tower gender theory, in fact efforts were made in the production and distribution to include broad sections of society. For example Hirschfeld entered into agreements with trade unions and eventually all this led him to despise and reject colonialism and structural white supremacy, which is a whole other story.

In Part I, "The Homosexuality of Men and Women as Biological Occurrence", Chapter 19, "Human Bisexuality (Hermaphroditism) as Basis for Male and Female Homosexuality (The Theory of Intermediaries)", describing why sex and gender variation are in concurrence with Darwinian evolution and every other characteristic of life and matter (pg 413):

The knowledge of the hermaphroditic character of homosexuality adds it as a link in a series of related natural phenomena, whose absence would mean a break in an uninterrupted line. It would be very noteworthy if the sex drive were an exception to the fluid transitions that lead from one to the other sex, which can be proven in the case of every organ and every function. If all the male features, occasionally in isolation or in great numbers, can appear in the case of women and in reverse all the female ones in the case of men, of which there is not the least bit of doubt, then it would be quite extraordinary if in this case the sex drive were the sole exception.

Accordingly, the absence of homosexuality would be a greater riddle than its existence, which to many appears more disconcerting and more unnatural than, say, the occasional occurrence of a beard on a woman or milk-producing breasts on a man. Just as people deduced undiscovered elements by studying the atomic weights in the periodical table of the elements; just as the position and the orbit of Neptune w ere discovered before sighting the planet by studying the distance between the other planets; just as people described the intermediary stages between the birds and reptiles before discovering Archaeopteryx embedded in the limestone at Solenhofer. so could any thinking, educated person prove the existence of homosexuals before seeing them face to face.

Dr. Kotscher of Hubertusburg correctly states: "All our phylo- and ontogeny (evolutionary and biological development) and the observation of heredity must lead us to admit that there is no absolute female animal and no absolute male animal, but rather in each individual a mixture of both occurs to produce animals of different kinds, in our case, humans of different kinds.

Then he asks "What is a woman?" and "What is a man?", providing a stereotypical response to each in detail. Starting with the production of ova and onward. So nobody can mistake what he says next for ignorance of quote-unquote-biology (pg 417):

According to this, a completely feminine, "absolute" woman would be one who not only produces egg cells, but would also correspond to the female type in every other respect; an "absolute" man one who produces sperm cells but at the same time also exhibits the average male type in all remaining areas. Such kinds of absolute representatives of their sex are constructed abstractions; in reality, up to now they have never been observed in such an extreme combination. More likely, people have been able to prove that there are remnants, no matter how small, of female characteristics in every male and correspondingly, remnants of the male in every female. However, let us assume that there exist people who, to express it in numbers, are 100 percent male or 100 percent female. There is still no question—and here, too, we are still adhering to simple facts taken from experience—there would often be a great number of persons who, in spite of carrying egg cells, showed features that in general approach the male sex and, on the other hand, there would be persons who, in spite of issuing sperm cells, showed features which in general are suited to the female. Because in our usage of language we usually define possessors of egg cells simply as women and the bearers of sperm cells simply as men, then it follows that there are women with male, men with female features, and these mixed forms are precisely what is understood by the expression "sexual intermediaries."

Then he spends a few pages setting out his scheme of categorisation (four categories, mentioned below). Worth reading for historical interest, nerds, but not required here. Then comes a (relatively) famous passage where he tells you how many (basic!) categories of gender/sex there are:

page 419

Of further importance is that all these features can appear in isolation or in combination. Every conceivable blend of male and female characteristics can occur, if we take as a basis each of the four main groups as a whole for the calculation of the number of possible combinations; thus, if we imagine that first, the sex organs, second, the remaining physical features, third, the sex drive, and fourth, the other psychological characteristics can be male, female, or mixed, then simply from that, you can obtain eighty-one basic types of sexual intermediary stages.

However, the number of possible variations is much greater when we consider that, indeed, many individual attributes are combined within each of the four groups, attributes which can appear in combination with any other one you like, with as many as you like, with as many of the others as you wish, and each, in addition, of different intensity. Let us take only four different attributes in each group, for example, in group II, hair covering, larynx, chest, pelvis, etc. (in reality there are many, many more), then that already furnishes four times four, or sixteen individual characteristics, which can bear male female, or merged features, which produces three to the sixteenth power, 43,046,721 combined possibilities or intermediary types.

And this is only in consideration of a limited subset of characteristics, not the whole range. So at the very beginning, we have the most rudimentary count of genders to be 81, or a slightly more sophisticated at 40 million, and even this is understood as an almost unforgivable over-simplification which a scientifically-minded person should not succumb to. Elsewhere, by way of carefully explaining the diagnostic criteria, he is careful to make sure the reader understands that sexuality and gender are unmoored from one another and can present in any combination. He presents vignettes of gay/bi trans people, warning doctors not to allow one aspect to mislead them regarding another.

It is very important to understand that all the people who formed the non-erased history of sex and gender studies were colleges with Hirschfeld. Harry Benjamin for example, was taken on a tour of Berlin gay bars by Hirschfeld, who hoped to influence him to a friendly feeling towards gender/sexual variant people. (He also did this with the Chief of Police, which I find suggestive of the impression made by Benjamin, but that's very speculative.) Benjamin did have access to a view of gender and transition which is remarkably in step with the more enlightened jurisdictions here in 2026, which re-frames any apologia about "being a man of his times". In fact he chose run things the way he did, even though he had a better framework available. And Freud, fucking Freud, was a direct contemporary. Hirschfeld was a founding member of Berlin Psychoanalytic Society. They disagreed on fundamental issues = divergent conclusions. Hirschfeld wanted the largest most diverse sample size possible, and also favored conducting talk therapy outside + walking rather than in a closed room reclined on couch.

As to the original subject of the thread, a little earlier in the same chapter (pg 361), Hirschfeld answers:

----reached wordcount limit for comment + no time to edit to fit. see reply for small rest of it

[–] none@hexbear.net 22 points 1 week ago (2 children)

His methodology is explained in Part II: "Homosexuality of Men & Women as a Social Occurrence", Chapter 24 "The Distribution of Male and Female Homosexuality. Statistical Foundations. Worth reading, to understand the historical context of the OP, which is that this knowledge is subject to continuous questioning and replication for over a century now. Being constantly made to re-prove ourselves is a component of repression; such research is not liberatory. Particular the fascist backlash to the original research itself (this was early 20th C Germany remember), which is described. I can post it, if anyone wants, but not now as I need to get somewhere. And maybe nobody read this long ass comment.

[–] AstroStelar@hexbear.net 7 points 1 week ago

I read it all the way

[–] PolarKraken@lemmy.dbzer0.com 3 points 1 week ago (1 children)

This was easily the most interesting stuff I've read in a while. Had no idea this was so well understood so far back.

[–] none@hexbear.net 3 points 1 week ago (1 children)

Thanks! I hope you pursue it further. It's a lot easier now than 5, 15 or 50 years ago.

Hirschfeld's activism was set in motion when he realized the gay bars of Chicago were very similar to the gay bars he knew back home in Germany. Which yes, does suggest way more questions than answers are available. From this, combined with his training in science, he derived a hypothesis of sameyness of humans when it came to sex. (There are gay people everywhere.) He soon extended this to trans people and to many others. After working for a while on reparative therapy, he gave it up as hopeless, falling back on the understanding of Darwinism as alluded to above. If beaks of Galapogos finches can be illustrated as this, it obviously follows sex/gender would be the same:

All this hateful, bigot shit, all of it is man-made. It's not natural to be ignorant of, or to hate, any kind of person, just as a bird holds no hostility to a beak shaped one way or another. All the shit we deal with is downstream of (admittedly successful) interventions by fascists. They make their hatreds appear natural which is a total lie. GSM have always existed wherever on earth in every population. While understanding that all modern constructs are products of modern material conditions, we can also see ourselves: all kinds, every where, every time.

Per Scientiam ad Justitiam = Through Science, To Justice

[–] PolarKraken@lemmy.dbzer0.com 2 points 1 week ago (1 children)

I'm a big ol nerd so one of the ways I came around to accidentally understand humans was by really learning a lot about animals (your Galapagos finch example was one of my entry points into better understanding the fluidity of bodies). Another was by learning a lot about math and physics and how almost nothing is discrete, or absolute.


I stopped short earlier of saying "so it's always just been hatred and rejection", didn't want to put words in your mouth, but yep that was my immediate conclusion.

[–] none@hexbear.net 3 points 1 week ago (1 children)

"so it's always just been hatred and rejection", didn't want to put words in your mouth, but yep that was my immediate conclusion.

I don't agree with that at all. What I'm saying is that the bigotry was constructed along with the new identities and they were devised to serve the purpose of fascism. Which can't really be reduced to "hatred and rejection" even though those are tools which it can employ.

Part of the propaganda against GSM is the idea that there is some "natural" reason these people will be subject to universal oppression. Like sex and gender variation are inherently viewed by others as dirty, bad, anti-social, plain icky and other humans will recognize that and react negatively.

Actually it seems that left to their own devices, people react in a variety of ways just as they do to any other uncommon characteristic. Which can be suspicion to adulation to disinterest or anything else. The wide-spread anti-gay/trans sentiments have to be artificially created, by people with power.

[–] PolarKraken@lemmy.dbzer0.com 3 points 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago) (1 children)

Well, it sounds like I may have rubbed you the wrong way, but I was never meaning to exclude manufactured hatred and rejection. I didn't highlight it specifically cuz I don't really know and again, want to limit my assumptions, especially in the presence of someone who knows better than myself.

In my experience in life (contrasting that epistemically with the stronger wisdom available from reading the right people), I find that a portion of folks are simply afraid of things they haven't experienced, and that fear can manifest in lots of different ways, generally depending on external factors more than internal.

And I've spent enough time around kids to understand very clearly that hatred is a thing that takes time to learn (must be taught), it doesn't really seem to arise naturally (though it is very effective at spreading - infectious).

What I was aiming to highlight, was new information to me, regarding the lie around the assertion that "people just didn't know any better". And saying, no, according to what you shared, that's not accurate, hatred and rejection (by motivated powerful people) did this, not pure ignorance. The fact of its only recent translation seems damning, and really struck me as "wow ideas were just locked away like that, pre-tech". I think I'm saying and thinking the same things as you, but maybe not?

At any rate, apologies if I am still missing something you find crucial.

[Edit: apologies I've edited this like 19 times in the few minutes since I posted to flesh it out better lol, I should really exercise better discipline and just collect my thoughts prior to submit. But anyway I'm done now]

[–] none@hexbear.net 3 points 1 week ago (1 children)

you don't have to agree with me! I am not offended in any case. I am sorry my writing is poor in that I can come across as hostile or upset when I am only trying to be clear. I have tried to improve but it is ongoing problem for me. So I am sorry I was bothering you, I just find the subject interesting and it's hard for me to resist adding more.

I didn't see any of the prior iterations of your comment so whatever was said there is between you and god (and possibly a cache somewhere). I also iterated a lot on what I said. I guess we both did that out of mutual care and respect for the subject.

[–] PolarKraken@lemmy.dbzer0.com 3 points 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago)

I worried that I'd misunderstood something and subsequently misstepped, is all. Regarding edits, I've been trying to experiment with being more concise. It usually ends up with either misunderstandings or my own hand-wringing followed by at least as many words, so. Plenty of room for improvement and lots to learn is territory I'm familiar with and comfortable within, lol.

I appreciate your approach to clarity, I find your POV easy to locate and worth listening to, two things not all that common and valuable to me :)

To bring it back to the original point, you shared info that scratched an itch that has been bothering me since I learned to think, basically. I've slowly grown dimly aware of how many other peoples and cultures have understood and integrated these basic facts as fundamental parts of being communities of people.

And that process has produced this growing sense of "it makes no sense, the claim that we're just late to the party and finally learning a whole lot of stuff all at once".

I've long had plenty of small explanations for that, but this feels bigger. As soon as I read it, it intuitively felt like "ah ha, this exactly fills in this gap of curiosity and obvious answers that I knew had to be in there (whatever diet of info and history of such I was raised on, or could even later find!*) somewhere".

Cheers. This will dwell in my thinking for a long time, probably just forever, as I grow my understanding of the world, and I really appreciate it.

[–] Azarova@hexbear.net 3 points 1 week ago (1 children)

I read your whole post and I really appreciate your critique! Perhaps I was too careless with my language, as I greatly admire Hirschfeld's work, and this comment will certainly get me off my ass to read the 1,500 pages of Homosexuality of Men & Women spread across the 3 rather imposing tomes that have been sitting on my desk for an embarrassingly long time. My issue isn't with Hirschfeld's work but rather with the terms in their modern form which have been almost completely stripped of all the detail you relayed.

I guess to attempt to explain myself a little more clearly, it took me several years into my transition before I stumbled across Hirschfeld for the first time. I suppose I was so caught up in actually transitioning that I didn't think to investigate the history of it all. When I first started transitioning in the early 2010s, the term "transsexual" was still in popular use but had been completely deformed into a very rigid and binary transmedicalist definition (at least in the circles where I was coming to self awareness), which obviously adversely affected the way I thought of transness and my own discomfort with slotting myself into such a binary. It's that kind experience that I view as the baggage that comes from these terms, though I did not mean to lay that at the feet of Hirschfeld. As I said somewhere else in the comments, this is still a half-baked thought and I have a bad tendency to be rather careless with my language sometimes, so I appreciate the correction!

Discovering that Hirschfeld had a century before effectively endorsed the concept of an infinite spectrum of diversity in human sex, sexuality, and gender was a big part in getting me out of the aforementioned funk, so thank you for sharing all this! Who knew that cracking your egg on 420chan's /cd/ would be so bad for you!

[–] none@hexbear.net 2 points 1 week ago (1 children)

1,500 pages of Homosexuality of Men & Women spread across the
tomes that have been sitting on my desk for an embarrassingly long time.

You own it?! How?? I've seen it once in a while for sale at an antiquarian/specialist seller, generally with an asking price of at least a grand USD. In my region there is one copy at a public library and one copy in a university library. They aren't available for loan. I am discussing the English translation; if you are german-reader then I think it is somewhat easier to obtain (maybe?) but still a find. You don't need to answer any of that of course. The German version would at least be public domain (so cheap imprints are possible) whereas the English translation is so recent that the translator is still alive (and actively translating further works, thanks to him for his service) and the book being out of print and I doubt it sold many copies, very difficult to find.

Whether you should read it or not, I guess depends on what are your interests. It's for sure worth flipping through especially if you have on paper. I found it very provocative, to learn that "new" ideas are not so new. And that they were found by a totally different route than the modern incarnations. To me, all there is in there is questions questions questions. The path from there to here is quite mysterious and the explanations so far available are not satisfying to me.

One question, how this book came to be published. Like many things about this man, the historical work may not have been done yet (or I may only be unaware of it). Why is it 1500 pages long? It does not exactly warrant that many pages. To the extent that reading it does provoke questions like, "is this this book meant to be read?". Or was it produced as a decoration? Who actually bought it, which parts did they read, if any? I am not clear if the book itself had much influence, or the many other activities of Hirschfeld and those with whom he worked in various committees and groups were more important.

My issue isn't with Hirschfeld's work but rather with the terms in their modern form which have been almost completely stripped of all the detail you relayed.

Yeah it sucks what has been done! You were articulating a very broad consensus understanding, shared between a lot of people otherwise apparently at odds. Which has started to come away the past 10 or 20 years. I hope to learn more about the whole historical trajectory of these concepts.

How did the false history come to be so thoroughly accepted by everyone? This book of Gabriel Rockhill, Who Paid the Pipers of Western Marxism?, is really interesting and I would like to know how these two stories fit together. Even though it will likely not emerge to be at all complimentary overall to Hirschfeld, who's politics are like much else, not enough investigated or described, and not by people with the relevant expertise to evaluate. It seems that all the recent work on him is very liberal in origin, and kind of mindlessly positive (like what I wrote). I don't think this analysis is definitive. So one reason I would like for you to peek into Homosexuality is because I think the topic is desperate for marxist/communist perspective (which I assume you have). But there is lots of other source material to work from (and likely even more to be found for the enterprising).

Who knew that cracking your egg on 420chan's /cd/ would be so bad for you!

Sounds like it worked out just fine.

[–] Azarova@hexbear.net 3 points 3 days ago

Apologies for the late reply, had some stuff come up.

Sorry to get you excited, but I was referring to the Lombardi-Nash translations, not the original texts. I wish I was fluent enough in German to read the sources directly. When I ever get to that point, top of my reading list would be Das Dritte Geschlecht, which is a modern reprinting of a magazine of the same name that ran for 5 issues in the later Weimar years. It consists of a lot of work written by trans people themselves, as well as medical experts in the field, plus a variety of photographs.

You bring up some really interesting questions about the text itself that I haven't thought about before. I haven't read Rockhill's book but I have listened to a couple of his talks about it, so I'm vaguely familiar with his thesis, and applying a similar lens towards the topic of trans medicine is very interesting. Based on my scattered reading, my guess would be that the answer is tied to the John Hopkins clique of physicians who eventually ended up inventing gender to "save binary sex from conceptual collapse". Embarrassingly, I have not finished it, but Histories of the Transgender Child is an excellent resource on that group and their work. The preface in the first Lombardi-Nash volume mentions that anti-German sentiment surrounding the First World War played a role in limiting Hirschfeld's reach outside the German speaking world. That, plus the infamous destruction of the Institute along with the fact that the vast majority of material (particularly the 'informal' stuff like patient notes) was never published abroad, meant that his work was buried under the other monumental historical events of the time. It's been a long while since I read it but I remember Heike Bauer mentioning in The Hirschfeld Archives: Violence, Death, and Modern Queer Culture that a lot of his surviving work was only unearthed recently.

Thank you for the interesting lines of inquiry, it's given me a lot to think about and an interesting direction in which to take my research, other than just reading Hirschfeld for the sake of it. I'd like to be able to bring a Marxist/communist lens to all this, but I am hesitant to even call myself those things because I am guilty of the classic sin of Not Doing The Fucking Reading. You're right though, his politics are generally glossed over from what I've read. Heike Bauer makes mention of some of the topics he was curiously silent about, but the only indication of his actual politics I've come across in my reading was an off hand mention that the Institute would occasionally house members of the Comintern who were staying in/passing through Berlin.

Anyway, not sure how to conclude, but thanks for chatting with me about this, it's given me a lot to think about! hirschfeld