this post was submitted on 03 Aug 2026
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Think it just depends on what you consider "dirty fighting". Imo there is no such thing as dirty fighting if you are being assaulted. If biting someone's nose off is going to help stop someone from getting brain damage then it's all fair game.
I've only been in like two serious scraps in my life and neither of those people thought it was fair that I picked them up and bounced them off the pavement. Imo if you didn't want that then you shouldn't start a fight with someone big enough to throw you.
My thesis is that seldom would biting someone's nose help you from getting brain damage and more often it's going to be the origin of their motivation to give you brain damage. The nut shot is what's going to escalate the level of violence of a losing fight from a bloody nose and a headache to lost teeth and a skull fracture.
I'm not saying that it's unfair, I'm asserting that it's ineffective. Rude attacks are much more effective from the top position. If someone is straddling you in mount and you grab for their groin, they might grab your fingers and break them for the trouble and then do your eyes like the Mountain from Game of Thrones. Their nuts kind of ache, but you come out of the altercation with mangled fingers and scratched corneas.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lPzVQ98KC0k
Bas Ruten, UFC Heavyweight Champion, UFC hall of famer, and three-time King of Pancrase world champion, has the story I'm looking for @ 3 minutes of this video and goes on to explain the point much more emphatically than I can. (CW: It's Joe Rogan)
The vast majority of people getting brain damage from random assaults are acquired without intent. It's from a random blow to the back of the head or when you hit the pavement.
We're not talking about a mma fight..... I've never seen an actual street fight where someone tried to actually mount someone. I have seen people ineffectually attempt to choke someone face to face, in that scenario biting someone's nose is going to get them to let go. If you are a smaller person being assaulted by some random person, the goal is simply to create a situation or enough space for you to run away.
Is dirty fighting going to help you on a one vs one when both people have training? Prob not, but that is a tiny minority of actual fights in real life situations. Which is why bjj is not for the streets in the first place. Trying to take someone to the ground is the last thing you really want to do in something like a bar fight, because one of their buddies is just going to fight dirty and smash you in the back of the head with a bar stool.
I think this is the problem with people being obsessed with mma, it creates a idea that fights are mostly one vs one combat. As someone who's worked in orthopedics for nearly two decades in a large city...... That's not usually how people end up in a hospital.
Most fights happen when people are drinking, and most of those end when the first person throws a sucker punch. If they go on much longer than that then more people tend to get involved and someone usually ends up taking a group beating.
I'm not sure I'd draw the same conclusion from the evidence. More people fighting randos are going to be untrained than trained. Sure. Absolutely. Only a fraction of a fraction are going to do enough martial arts to make an appreciable difference. There are more variables at play (friends, weapons, and environment). Absolutely! Therefore more people are going to go to the hospital because of the random chaos of untrained people running into a chaotic environment than people who end up in the hospital because of some secret, midnight, parking garage kumite. 10.000%.
But even in your example, someone throwing a sucker punch is arguably a rude technique. That escalation of violence (or perhaps the origin thereof) is answered by escalated violence by way of a group beating. If they didn't do the rude technique they don't get the group beating. In that sense, I think all of these things can be true about random fights while still maintaining that rude techniques make people (and their friends) more willing to escalate violence.
I'm not necessarily talking about an MMA fight either. What I am saying is that the same adrenaline/drugs that makes breaking someone's arm in an armbar ineffective while a choke will necessarily stop them is the same difference that makes biting the nose a gamble instead of a high percentage solution. Because if they don't recoil back in agony, then you've given that violent person with outstretched, dirty hands access to your eyes and a reason to reach towards your face. They're going to have that reflex without training it a day in their lives. You could say "well, what about headbutts?" and you probably could, but at that point, for the same amount of effort, you could do clinch defense work and specialize in making distance so you can get away, perhaps throwing a couple elbows for the trouble.
I believe there's a survivorship bias in just taking into account people who wind up in the hospital. You would never hear a story about someone who didn't escalate and therefore didn't need to go to the hospital. That story could look like a guy who throws wild punches for 65-80 seconds, gets their shirt ripped, gets tired, yells something mean, and buzzes off.
(also I didn't recommend BJJ for self defense. Saying sorry no matter who's at fault, running, and being around friends are 1000x more effective)
You'd be surprised, a sucker punch often ends the fight as the two people who originated the conflict have found a resolution and now one side has to take care of an unconscious person. Fights generally get out of hand when the fight goes on long enough to get the attention of the group who then see a friend who actively needs a hand.
The vast majority of untrained people who experience adrenaline do not fight, they typically flee, or freeze.
They really won't...... People generally do not think or react rationally under stress or pain. They're just going to try and push you away.
And they would react to this differently than a "dirty fight"? People react to pain, not the level of justification of that pain.
You do all the time..... Mostly they are bystanders who get clobbered for being in the wrong place at the wrong time.
Those guys get the shit kicked out of them or stabbed all the time...... People willing to do violence to a level that endangers someone's life do not need a rational justification to do so. I have had patients who literally got shot for saying "what are you going to do, shoot me?".
Gambling that they recoil in agony instead of them and their friends increasing the level of violence
Gambling that they flee or freeze instead of increasing the level of violence
What are they going to push on while you're biting their nose?
They can react however they want, but you'll have already made distance because you've gotten their hands off of you and stepped out of the pocket. But again, as the focus appears to be on untrained people, the only point was that I believe it to be a higher % tactic for making distance as compared to a headbutt.
The fact that people get unlucky in a chaotic environment is something we agree on. The point of the last message is that I believe this is not dispositive of rude techniques increasing the level of violence which is a bad idea if you're already losing.
Are there incredibly violent people out there for whom it doesn't matter your level of violence? Sure. Is randomly fighting/antagonizing random people a stupid idea with no upside? Absolutely. Can you be subject to escalated violence even if you're fighting with only fists? For sure.
Would you have been better off against a wrath-drunk person if you used rude techniques instead of just your fists? An interesting question, admittedly. Against multiple? No, there's nothing short of a weapon or nice running shoes that's going to help you out without a hefty dose of luck (in opponent selection, environment, and how the punches land). But a single cruel person for whom there is no de-escalation nor escape, you have no combat sport experience, nor weapon, nor backup then I guess it's worth a shot. I wouldn't hang my hat on it, but it sucks that you got in that situation in the first place because a gamble seems like it's what could get you out. Also, think about it! As they increase the level of violence against you and make your situation increasingly hopeless, consider how easy it becomes to justify increasing the level of violence in return. Do you think the aggressor is getting a good EV by risking recoiling in agony against you? Risking you taking out a weapon? Risking police intervention? Even the aggressor is more vulnerable in this escalated fight! Even if they still win they might have gouged eyes, broken fingers, or a felony case. And for what? The cash in your wallet or something? Some fragile, toxic-masculine sense of honor?
But if you keep encountering wrath-drunk people, you're not instigating it, and you can't just avoid them then you probably need some kind of weapon more than you need a dirty technique. You'd also likely benefit better prevention like not looking like an easy target, not looking like a valuable target, being in well lit places during the day, not being alone, saying sorry no matter who's at fault, deescalating, leaving, and things of this nature. Those will save you 100 times before rude techniques save you once.
All the same, I believe there are still relevant and plentiful situations that can be made worse by increasing the level of violence against someone who already has the upper hand against you and no situations made better by increasing the level of violence against someone you're already beating.
Recoil in agony? I think you're underestimating how easy it is for most people to be knocked unconscious, especially if they are inebriated.
Most people are more likely to freeze or flee. You are gambling that you are fighting a logical person who believes in only justified violence.
Body or face? My point was that they aren't going to strategically go for an eye gouge. Having your face or body pushed away is what you are going for.
Again, you are assuming people know how to do that.....
Any response is going to necessitate an increase the levels of violence.
yeah... But we were talking about starting a fight, we were talking bout getting yourself out of an assault.
That is where I really disagree. If you're being attacked randomly and without cause then you cannot trust the person will escalate in violence in a rational way.
Again.... I didn't claim that you should go out and start fight, in fact I suggested you run away from them if ever possible. My only claim was that if your healthier in safety is already on the line there is no such thing as a fair fight.
Violent people who start fights are not rational people...... I don't know how you can't comprehend this? They are not thinking about moderation or the potential ramifications of escalating violence. The vast majority of people who commit felony assaults have extremely poor impulse control.
I'm not convinced this is good faith. I'm disengaging.
I think we can agree to disagree without accusing someone of being disingenuous without any evident reason.
True, I misspoke. Sorry
No worries. Like I said I think it's perfectly fine to agree to disagree, especially on a topic as silly as this. I'm on the rough side of my thirties and haven't been in a real fight in well over a decade and don't plan on doing so any time soon.
I found a YouTube link in your comment. Here are links to the same video on alternative frontends that protect your privacy: