Ask Lemmy
A Fediverse community for open-ended, thought provoking questions
Rules: (interactive)
1) Be nice and; have fun
Doxxing, trolling, sealioning, racism, toxicity and dog-whistling are not welcomed in AskLemmy. Remember what your mother said: if you can't say something nice, don't say anything at all. In addition, the site-wide Lemmy.world terms of service also apply here. Please familiarize yourself with them
2) All posts must end with a '?'
This is sort of like Jeopardy. Please phrase all post titles in the form of a proper question ending with ?
3) No spam
Please do not flood the community with nonsense. Actual suspected spammers will be banned on site. No astroturfing.
4) NSFW is okay, within reason
Just remember to tag posts with either a content warning or a [NSFW] tag. Overtly sexual posts are not allowed, please direct them to either !asklemmyafterdark@lemmy.world or !asklemmynsfw@lemmynsfw.com.
NSFW comments should be restricted to posts tagged [NSFW].
5) This is not a support community.
It is not a place for 'how do I?', type questions.
If you have any questions regarding the site itself or would like to report a community, please direct them to Lemmy.world Support or email info@lemmy.world. For other questions check our partnered communities list, or use the search function.
6) No US Politics.
Please don't post about current US Politics. If you need to do this, try !politicaldiscussion@lemmy.world or !askusa@discuss.online
Reminder: The terms of service apply here too.
Partnered Communities:
Logo design credit goes to: tubbadu
view the rest of the comments
The prominent anthropologist Dave Graeber studied this extensively and concluded (most accessibly in his book Debt) that the kind of barter economy that we were taught about in elementary school probably never really existed like that, and that there have always been means of exchange (like money). So even if there was a societal collapse, you might barter individual things with neighbors once in a while, but even in a modestly sized group or one they regularly trades with others you’d almost immediately implement a better system.
I'm just going to spam this fact in this thread, but there is no evidence that bartering has ever been a stepping stone to a currency-based economy in any culture. Bartering only arises in cultures that are accustomed to money, but run into issues with currency supply (deflation, hyperinflation, etx).
Maybe bartering as the primary system, but there are definitely historically and currently many examples of “real” bartering (like in-kind work, or even the nonsense going on with trading out datacenter capacity right now, I’d argue)
This post is definitely about bartering in a primary sense though
I haven't read his book but my understanding is that while there were means of exchange in many societies, the foundation of most pre-historic economies was the gift economy.
Unless you are counting that as a form of exchange? It was typically reciprocal in many ways.
A gift-based economy does feature reciprocity, but it is very different from one based on bartering. In a gift economy it is implicit that those that lack the ability to contribute as much are also not expected to reciprocate to the same degree.
Yeah I'm not saying it's barter, but OP's comment didn't mention it at all so I thought it was important to talk about.
Yep, I have a dramatic oversimplification problem. But it’s hard to describe 50,000+ years of economic proclivities in a tweet :)
A passage from the book:
The basic idea is that our modern economic system has had the humanity stripped out of it in order to be an engineerable system at all. The natural way for things to work is for personal relationships and cultural conventions to come first, to the point where the way to make impersonal trade work was to make it more personal; for instance the text right before the quoted passage describes a culture whose barter meets were also swingers parties. The book has lots more examples of the ways material relations have fundamentally contradicted the idea that the natural way is to appraise things down to a numerical value and play an optimization game, for instance cultural practices of certain types of goods only being used for specific types of things like blood and marriage debts, and cultures which have strong taboos against ever refusing to give a person food.
The problems OP is talking about are specific to capitalist society and the way people in it are conditioned to think. You don't need a "system" that takes that way of thinking as its core assumption and constrains people thinking that way to act pro-socially, the much simpler solution would be to permit and enable the entanglement of personal and economic relations that naturally happens.
Yeah Debt is a great book and I highly recommend it to anyone curious about it