this post was submitted on 31 Dec 2025
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Sorry but when you say "I haven't seen a good refutation", and then mention you've actually seen at least one refutation, you're effectively disrespecting that one refutation (i.e. Anark's) therefore, you deserve as good as you give. That's my perspective of it.
Yes, I dip, because I very clearly rile people in here up and I am not in the mood to enable in the usual hexbear pile-on. And yes, if you remain in defense of some argument I, and every other anarchist, considers laughably bad and many-time refuted, I will treat you as irrational.
I'm not "disrespecting" the refutation, I just said I didn't think it was a particularly compelling argument. Further, you were the one that told me I must not be looking hard enough before I had even said I didn't think Anark's video was particularly good. It's certainly long, but thankfully I don't need to point out why the whole video isn't great, but just respond to Anark's pinned summary:
This is just redefining what authority is. Engel's arguments are about the necessity of some hierarchies, something anarchists took issue with and he responded to.
-Organization is not authority
See point 1.
-Authority is a structural relation based in monopolization of power
See point 1 and 2, but then we get into the question of monopolization of power, which is the only meaningful point made by Anark. Engels isn't talking about removing power from the working class, but recognizing necessary roles with hierarchy baked-in, which he gave examples for. Anark draws a distinction here, though, and minimizes the impact of class struggle and democracy.
-Authoritarians need to learn about how power works
Kinda teeters into idealism here.
Overall, not really impressed with Anark's argument, it's mostly him pretending Engels was arguing against a strawman and inserting Anark's own definition of authority.
Okay? Go for it, if you want to do that rather than try to have an actual conversation, that's your choice, but you shouldn't be surprised if that very behavior is what returns it to you.
You originally said you haven't seen a good argument. That means either you haven't looked (what I originally assumed), or you think that a clearly well-thought argument is objectively bad (therefore, disrespect)
not going to rehash on authority, but at this point bringing it up as a valid thing is like bringing up flat earth. I'm not even going to waste my time with it when anarchists have been pointing out how laughable it is since Engel's time.
People don't deserve pile-ons because they're not in the mood or don't have the time for endless arguments online.
I said I hadn't seen a good refutation, not that nobody put thought into refuting it. I'm not denying Anark's effort, just the quality and correctness of the points. Doubling down and comparing me to a flat earther is the kind of behavior that gets you piled-on. The fact that anarchists have been laughing at On Authority isn't a compelling refutation of the points Engels brings up on the necessity of certain hierarchies in production and distribution.
Sure, but calling people flat earthers and stupid is a good way to invite that upon yourself.
I get piled on whatever I do mate, that's just what hexbears do
I don't get piled on by Hexbear users, even though we have a lot of anarchists, and I don't see anarchists getting dogpiled here either, assuming they aren't bringing an antagonistic energy to begin with. I can empathize with being pre-emptively defensive, but at some point you have to accept that that brings more dogpiling.
Oh please, I got my first dog pile in my own anarchist comm for not engaging their debate perverts. There's a reason hexbear is widely defederated and it's not because people are afraid of them. It's because most of their members behave like a toxic clique to the point that I've seen ND hexbears publicly express how terrified they are about misstepping and having the rest turn on them.
For reference for anyone reading the thread, db0 means this thread
Oh yeah. I remember. As db0 says, ableism is a systemic problem on hexbear that goes all the way to the admins
Nope
Can you link what you mean then?
Not in the mood to go digging for you. I've learned my lesson to expect only bad faith from hexbears, so I don't make such good faith efforts
Well I don't mean to blame you for everything anyone in your instance does wrong, but it seems like it's an exceedingly common pattern now to level an accusation against Hexbear or "tankies" more generally, then ignore requests for evidence or refuse to provide evidence on the grounds that such evidence would definitely be dismissed. Or engage in discussions against Hexbear users while blatantly refusing to even read the things their interlocutors are typing.
Just from my own experience in the last few days:
So why is it fair for you to expect only bad faith from Hexbears when having conversations with people from antagonistic instances is demonstrably quite frustrating for us as well?
Mate, when it's frustrating, people don't purposefully go into the threads of the comms of other instances and start shit. I know if I comment in hexbear I'm getting piled on with bad faith, so I very rarely do and know to just disregard the fallout when that happens. But when people come to my own space demand a debate, and then goad me instance-wide for not giving it to them, it's a different thing entirely.
Don't weaponize ND users here so you can feel like you won an argument. Disgustingly patronizing behavior.
Sorry not sorry if the truth is too much to bear, bby. Don't act all outraged now, that's the bed y'all made and keep making.
You could make your case really well by linking an actual example of what you mean, if it's so clear.
Honestly where do y'all keep coming in a stale 1 day old thread 18 comments deep?
The matrix chat where we coordinate our brigades /s
Well, megathread in this case, but clearly the point stands
I did actually come from a matrix chat.
Lol of course. Why the cheeky /s then which implies this is a fable?
Because it isnt a matrix chat where we coordinate brigades.
Hexbear brigading itself, in this case? lol.
I'm not even in any matrix chats though so I don't know what goes on there.
LeninWeave ranting in this case.
ⓘ This user is suspected of being a cat. Please report any suspicious behavior.
Understandable.
You mean, it's not explicitly about it, just incidental? Like if it's a common thing to link to threads to rant, surely you can see how that also invites brigades?
This is the first time I've seen this happen.
It was linked from the mega
I can really feel your love for our ND users in this grossly patronizing and presumptive reply. I like the part where you imply I'm acting and not legitimately offended, that's not an ableist assumption at all. /s, if that wasn't clear.
I do feel sorry for the NDs who have ended in this clearly toxic community which is harming them. In fact it was such a stunning statement that it has stayed with me as one of the worst aspects of hexbear and is reinforcing the rest of the ableism I see. . Don't use your ND as a shield either. Disgusting behaviour.
Condescending again. Still acting like I couldn't be legitimately offended by you weaponizing and misrepresenting our internal discussions (which I was an active participant in). Assuming I must be faking it. Your behavior here is perfectly representative of the kind of communication style ND users here have complained about.
Edit: you clearly didn't read any of the complaints you're weaponizing if you thinks it's acceptable to accuse someone who you disagree with of faking an emotional response.
They're also saying it's hexbears fault for them not following the rules.
I suddenly realize why there so okay defending indefensible users now
Oh well why am I not surprised since condescension, bullying, and rage baiting is the modus operanti of this instance which is especially harmful towards NDs. And when hexbears mark someone as the enemy, all rules are off. Even saying that their behaviour is harmful to NDs causes them to close ranks and engage in disgusting levels of ableism.
Even you, coming here all random-like to say that I'm just doing rhetoric by pointing out how shitty hexbear is to NDs is fucking condescending, as of I cannot possibly be upset about it it's just "tokenizing". When you pile in guns blazing with bad faith and condescension, don't be surprised that you get some of that back.
To clarify, I accused you of tokenizing (which I subsequently edited to say weaponizing, which was more accurate to what I meant) because you vaguely brought up the general idea of complaints made by ND users on here in a way that I felt lacked context and misrepresented the actual complaints. Moreover, your comment seemed to me to imply that the ND users here were all cowering in fear of the other users. As a person who was an extremely active participant in recent discussions on here on the subject (which I think are what you were referring to with the vague comment about ND users expressing being "terrified"), I took exception to that.
See if you came in with a reasonable point like this, instead of all combative, we wouldn't have reached this point. And this immediate bad faith I always see, is why I have a massive problem with hexbears.
Also I did not imply anything and you should know better than to assume. I said what I said. What I've seen. And it's true. And it upset me. And it's an indication of the effect hexbear can have on people (especially NDs) and why in my opinion hexbear keeps getting defederated.
I think that might not be an implication that ND users are cowering in fear of other users on here so much as an outright statement of it as fact. As I said, I was an active participant in those recent discussions and I feel that your characterization misrepresents them and infantilizes ND users on here. My initial reply was harsh because I had a real emotional response to that.
Fair enough. To be exact then:No I don't meant to imply that all or most NDs are cowering in fear. I meant exactly and only what I said, that I've seen some hexbear NDs express such sentiments of fear, which when added to my personal experience of how ableist hexbears have been towards myself, indicates a systemic problem of hexbears attitudes which also manifests in the wide defederation.
As I said, I was a participant in those discussions where people expressed those things, and I think they're improving ("dunking culture" has been gradually fading away on here, especially in the last few months) and also not at all issues unique to Hexbear. In fact, most of them stem from a culture built in Reddit. I would say that in my experience this website is safer for ND users than most others I can think of, though not as much as I'd like (which I hope is being addressed through recent discussions, etc.).
To discuss concrete things, though, I assume when you're discussing a recent dogpile (what you brought up to Cowbee), you're referring to the thread that this post links to? I genuinely don't see the anyone dogpiling you in that thread (you only interacted with 3 Hexbear users across the whole thread that I saw), but I think maybe you're referring to a different thread?
Considering the greatest champions of defederation from Hexbear are also often the most toxic instances and users on the fediverse, I legitimately don't think that dunking culture is the primary cause of defederation. Lemmygrad I think had less of a dunking culture and was defederated more widely. The same people who push to defederate Hexbear and Grad generally push to defederate .ml, which AFAIK has never had a culture of "dunking" at all. It's fairly clear, at least to me, that the widespread defederation of these instances is nothing more or less than simple red scare mentality from the liberal portions of the fediverse (.world being the clearest example).
I think that I'd take your final point further and would argue that Lemmygrad has the opposite of Hexbear's lighthearted dunking culture in the form of a pretty scary gang of well-read posters that will inundate any liberal post with lengthy rebukes. It makes total sense that they got mass defederated, it's horrifying! Hexbear has been gaining more users like that over the past couple of years, and now we're at the point that if you post a lib take on an instance that's federated with us, you'll also get flooded with some lengthy, well-researched comments. We gotta keep improving the posting because a lot of low effort dunks still remain, but we're on a good trajectory.
I'm not talking to about this thread since I anyway came in with a cheeky attitude. The pile-ons I've experiencedaand which I'm usually referring to, have been multiple hundreds of comments deep with dozens of hexbears inside my own comms in my own instance.
I honestly disagree that it's red scare. Sure there's some that agitate for blocking for this reason, but in my experience with theses who express dislike for federation with hex, most people really fucking hate the bad faith, toxic and rage baiting attitudes constantly coming out of it. I. E. It's the dirtbag, not the left that's the problem. There's plenty of radicals in /0, slrpnk, quokka etc, and yet they don't encounter nowhere near the same guttural reactions. I think it's a cope to blame anything on red scare and it allows to avoid introspection.
I usually stay out, and don't make comments when I know I dont have it in me to deal with it/replies. But you've been make a really good case for defederation. If this is what an admin is like I dont want to deal with the rest.
They have much better users than admins honestly. Even after getting in some frustrating arguments with db0 people recently, I wouldn't want them defederated.
It isn't even all admins, either.
It's tradition at this point
Hexbear is a bit rowdy, sure, but it isn't like they get into debates for no valid reasoning. I'm ND myself, and while I can't say I have the same fears, I can understand them, but also have seen far worse on dbzer0 over the last few days especially. It's less that Hexbear is uniquely debate-perverted and more that it simply isn't aligned 1-1 politically with instances like dbzer0, we have a lot of anarchists but also a lot of Marxists.