We, the admin team, decry all forms of settler-colonialism, and we recognize that Zionism is a pro-settler-colonialist position.
Therefore we propose that should no longer be accepting of any Zionist accounts on our instances.
Please upvote for agree, downvote for disagree.
Note: we only count votes by instance members of dbzer0 and anarchist.nexus, plus a few vouched-for external users.
Hi mateys, I've kept things simple in the above text, for brevity, but in fact it took the admin team quite a while to get to this stage. We have discussed the policy change extensively, and a variety of different perspectives emerged. I will attempt to sum them up below as best I can:
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The "this isn't that complicated" school of thought goes something like this: If someone is consistently posting comments that mirror Hasbara talking points (e.g. justifying the genocide in Gaza, consistently painting Palestinians as terrorists and Israel as the victim), then they should be instance banned. It's just not acceptable for Zionists to be allowed on our instances.
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The "slippery slope" / "purity test" school of thought is that banning people for having an "unpopular" political opinion would potentially mean banning half the fediverse, if more and more of these policies were enacted over time. To attempt to mitigate this we are keeping the scope of this rule as narrow as possible, and I also don't think many of our users will be affected. Also, we typically don't have frequent policy changes, and I have no reason to expect that to change moving forward.
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Another important discussion point was "how do we decide whether someone is pro-Zionist or not?" We can't always be 100% sure of someone's true intentions, we can only go on what they have posted and that is subject to interpretation. I don't feel there is an easy answer to this one, except to say that we would have to be pretty certain before issuing a perma-ban.
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The "geopolitics don't matter" school of thought is that trying to be on the "correct" side of every issue is kind of pointless because nothing that happens in lemmy chat forums will ever make an ounce of difference in the real world. Don't bother moderating users over political/ideological differences, just let people argue if they want. While I can totally empathize with this sentiment, I can also see the case for taking a clear stance on this topic in accordance with our values and the overwhelming support for the Palestinian cause among our users. Personally, I am advocating in favor of the resolution.
Please add your comments below if you want to provide your own thoughts on the topic, or have any questions.
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And the Jews were expelled from the land of Israel by the Romans and the Babylonians, as well as being expelled from many, many Arab countries after 1948. It's always been wrong and it's always been happening, all over the world.
Nobody is right at this point. Everyone has a claim that seems legitimate from one point of view or another.
Are you prepared to dismantle the US for what we did to the native americans? How about Australia? Or huge parts of Africa? How do you think countries are formed, exactly? Are we only to recognize countries that were created through revolution, ignoring the people displaced by the previous rulers?
I think the whole region is fucked and honestly my personal preference is for the rest of the world to take over governance of the region as a global peace operation because neither side has shown the responsibility to govern peacefully and fairly. They both treat each other like shit, with Israel being the worse aggressor recently. Though I'm happy to accept a true two-state solution if we can get there (hint: the last time it looked likely the progressive leader responsible was assassinated by the Orthodox)
You left out the part where Jewish people were expelled by many countries for starting a genocide against greeks and Romans in the jewish-roman wars that left the SE rim of the mediterranean almost completely depopulated in many areas. In the midst of those wars anyone who was not Jewish was murdered for their ethnicity, and a new state of Israel was stood up and a end-times messiah proclaimed. It lasted about 2 years. And then Rome marched back in, crushed it, killed the messiah in battle, tore down their temple, and finally banished Jewish leaders from the region and forbade its practice. You make it sound like the Jews of that time were peaceniks simply minding their own business and were banished for no reason. Be honest about history.
Oh I see. So your argument is that people who are violent deserve what's coming to them when they're displaced from their homeland? I'll keep that in mind with the current conflict 🙄
you reap what you sow, Live by the sword die by it, Fuck Rround And Find Out, treat others like you'd like to be treated, take your pick. Yes, keep those in mind. Its uncomplicated common wisdom to live by and will absolutely help you in the current conflict.
so then you support Israel displacing everyone after the Oct 7th attacks. they fucked around and found out.
thanks for clarifying that for us! Mods should have no problem banning your ass for supporting genocide
"displacing"? You mean murdering innocents, right?
Exactly! Fuck around and find out! They got violent on Oct 7th so according to your logic that mean retaliation is justified. You said it yourself!
Unless you'd like to change your position? Because if it's ok to kill Israeli civilians but not Palestinian civilians then you've got some serious flaws in your logic
Palestinians has nothing to do with romans and babylonians and even with arabs replying to palestinians expulsions by expulsing jews from their countries. Many jews went to Isrsel by desl between some arab leaders and zionists and some with false flag by israel
Nice way to deflect from the fact that Israel is the occupier and palestine the occupied
Countries can merge , change name, change culture etc if it is done peacefully. Two state solution would make sens if israel didn't ruined it by building settlements. A two state solution mean displacing 700 000 settlers and two millions palestinians from israel
You are just doing some racism here. The other regions also been involved in terrible conflict. Most of the conflicts are in africa fueled by the west, china, russia and arab countries. Europe is responsible for the two deadliest wars, the holocust the worst genocide happened in Europe. The usa the democracy pretender is responsible of the biggest numbers of coups and destroying countries.
The whole world could have stopped the conflict after the nekba or after 67 where gaza and west bank was occupied but decided to back up the settler colonial state
You have completely missed my point. I never said the Palestinians had anything to do with the Romans or Babylonians. The point is that many Jews have a legitimate claim to their ancestral homeland that is no less valid than anyone else's. What they've done with that claim is terrible. It's evil. But the claim itself is not invalid.
And that is exactly the problem. Israel is the occupier now. But this conflict didn't begin 80 years ago. And to insist on only looking at the last X years is naive and exactly how you get to where we are.
If you can't admit that both Israel and Hamas et al have done terrible things then I can't have a reasonable conversation with you. That's not racism. That's reality. People on both sides of this conflict have done horrible things over the years. And continue to do horrible things. You won't get me to budge on that sentiment
No group has eternal right to a land. The jews who never left the region has right to the land where they lived for centuries. The European Zionists has zero claim to the land zero. They didn't have any right to force a state on Palestinians that included Jewish and Christian Palestinians. Just like someone descendent from an Arab settler that settled in Tunisia for example can't claim to have any right to the Saudi Arabia land.
Jews only had 9% of the land and was not contiguous so the idea that an Israeli state would exist without mass displacement for Palestinians is objectively not true
BS. The conflict started 80 years ago. You can't simply group all previous conflicts that ended before the israeli/arab war to make it look like Palestinians are just savages that don't want peace
Nobody believes you. You have no problem with Israeli occupation and just use Hamas as an excuse to justify Israel continuation of the occupation and the building of more settlements. I admit that Hamas did many wrong things and war crimes but at the end of the day Israel is the occupier who will continue to occupy palestine after the end of Hamas.
I know that I won't convince you . I just refuse to let your lies and propaganda pass and indoctrinate new people into the status quo
edit: before the creator of israel, the whole land was called Palestine so Israel did dismantle Palestine. You claimed to be against dismantling any state even peacefully yet supporting the settler colonial project over stupid claims
It is definitely racism to a whole region are not responsible so other regions should administer it that have even worse history. Your argument reminds me of americans who said they will liberate Iraq and bring them democracy or how Europeans settler claimed to be more civilized than the indigenous tribes so they stole their land
Nobody believes that Hamas et al have done terrible, horrible things? You're delusional. And I'm done talking with you.
Not what i said. Actually I did say Hamas did war crimes. I said nobody believe that you want israel to end occupation
Oh I see, so you're just flat out putting words in my mouth then.
Israel is committing genocide. The settlers are criminals. Netenyahu should be in a dark, cold prison. There is no question about these things. I'm just not going to sit here and pretend the solution can be one-sided. Either both sides admit fault in the conflict, and recognize the legitimate needs and desires of the people on the other side, and try to move forward from there, or it's just more endless conflict over land that has been at the center of dispute for thousands of years. You can't ignore thousands of years of conflict and act like the last 80 years are the only that matter. That's delusional.
I didn't . You shamelesly defended settler colonialism over and over again. And you claimed that i support hamas murder of civilians and wsr crimes. Despite explicitly saying the exsct opposite
The PA recognize Israel and Israel is still stealing more land despite it. The only reason there is no peace is Israel and all the other countries backing it . These country you said you want to trust in admistering Palestine
Conflicts always existed everybody since the start of humanity you racist.
You mean you said you don't support something but were ignored and told you support it anyway? Gosh and golly that sure sounds familiar.
I do not support Israeli colonialism and I do not defend it. You are a zealot who cannot accept that Israeli aggression isn't the only problem in the region that needs to be addressed.
You literally defended the idea that foreigners coming to the land and force a state on Palestinians and started with your bullshit of pogroms against jews that Palestinians has zero involvement in them. You claimed that the conflict is a thousand year old which is false . You literally repeated the words of the fool Trump because you are a fool like him. It is very clear that you are a racist who think the region can never live in peace and that other regions should come and civilize them just like racist Europeans settlers claimed that they wanted to civilize indigenous peoples.
I told you how PA recognize Israel yet Israel keep stealing more land it is very clear that the only problem is Israel, it's genice enablers and racist people like you .
Calling me a zealot is a badge of honor. Any decent people should be a zealot against settler colonialism and not shift some blame from the oppressors to the oppressed like scum like you do
I am pretty sure you racist if you lived during Nat Turner revolt where some children of slave owners was murdered you would spew the bullshit about how both slaves owners and slaves didn't want peace and wanted to kill each others
I said it was my preferred solution. Not that I would personally force anything on anyone.
Zealotry is always wrong. If you stop thinking, stop questioning, stop seeking to understand the people you're dealing with, you will only make things worse.
Just as you say you don't believe me, I don't believe you either. I think you view the crimes perpetrated against Jews as deserved.
We're at an impasse. I'm done here.
Your preferred solution is a racist one
Right, I forgot international coalitions for peace are racist because it doesn't leave the people who are murdering each other to figure it out on their own 🙄 Your propaganda is gross
No, you are racist because you portrayed the Middle East as a land full of people who have been trying to kill each other for a thousand years, and that the only solution is to have fucking Western hypocrites who have been selling weapons to Israel to kill innocent civilians, maintain the occupation, and portray that force as a fair one that will ensure peace.