this post was submitted on 30 Dec 2025
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Anarchism

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After seeing a megathread praising Mao Zedong, an actual mass killer, and a post about a guy saying "99% of westerners are 100000000000% sure they know what happened in 'Tiny Man Square' [...] the reasons for this are complex and involve propaganda [...]," I am genuinely curious what leads people to this belief system. Even if propaganda is involved when it comes to Tiananmen Square, it doesn't change the atrocities that were/are committed everywhere else in China.

I am all for letting people believe what they want but I am lost on why one would deliberately praise any authoritarian system this hard.

Can someone please help me understand why this is such a large and prominent community? How have these ideals garnered such a following outside of China?

EDIT: Thank you to everyone who has responded! This thread has been very insightful :)

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[–] PM_ME_VINTAGE_30S@lemmy.sdf.org 12 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago) (2 children)

Basic knowledge of material analysis, class consciousness and reading sources besides r*ddit

Buddy come the fuck on, the pinned post on this community is literally a start-to-finish group reading of Anarchist FAQ, which is >1000 pages in print and contains citations to hundreds of other pieces of anarchist literature. And I know you have Marxist-Leninists who don't do the reading either. We also have engineers who don't do the reading because turns out, that's just a thing that happens in groups where you're expected to do a lot of reading: you get people who want to be there but won't or can't do the reading.

Anyways, how about a pop quiz - What side were the "tankies" whom you so detest, on during the Apartheid?

Anti-apartheid, which is why we're speaking. That doesn't mean you're immune to possibly criticism. Same goes double for fellow anarchists.

Also, since you originally posted a picture of Mao referencing his treatment of landlords: I don't oppose the violence against landlords. I oppose the retention of a State to do so.

[–] SexMachineStalin@hexbear.net 46 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago) (1 children)

uncritical support to the state in liquidating landlords and slave-owners

[–] PM_ME_VINTAGE_30S@lemmy.sdf.org 6 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago) (2 children)

Yeah but I don't have to support the existence of the state even in the rare moment it does good things. For example, just because the serial killer down the street kills a landlord doesn't mean I have to support the serial killer or serial killers in general, in particular any of the other people killed by the serial killer.

[–] Carl@hexbear.net 41 points 1 month ago (1 children)

Principally, I would say that I'm more convinced by the argument that a state is necessary to engage in class warfare, and that therefore a proletarian state is a necessary precondition to the creation of socialism, than I am by the idea that the abolition of the state outright is capable of accomplishing anything besides creating a power vacuum.

Historically, anarchist and communist movements look very similar when they actually get their hands on power, because the reality of doing things at scale in an industrialized society overrides whatever perfect theory the revolutionaries had in their minds when they started.

[–] PM_ME_VINTAGE_30S@lemmy.sdf.org 2 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago) (1 children)

Yeah they look similar to outsiders, but it is my view that they aren't internally similar, and that we can absolutely find fundamental differences in the outcomes of marxist and anarchist projects.

[–] Socialism_Everyday@reddthat.com 10 points 1 month ago

Can you elaborate on the outcomes of anarchist projects?

[–] FunkyStuff@hexbear.net 28 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago)

It makes total sense to have a strong moral aversion to the state because it's inherently an oppressive institution that operates as a protection racket and an instrument of class power. There's more to the Marxist critique of the state than that, not just a moral opposition but a functional one that identifies the ways the contradictions inherent to the state, much like capitalism's contradictions, will bring about its sublation.

But the question I've always had for anarchists is that, hey, it's definitely true that the state is a tool for the ruling class to oppress the other classes and all that; but if we're locked into a global struggle to end capitalism, a historical process that develops unevenly, isn't it completely necessary for the proletariat – in the nation-states where it succeeds in overthrowing the capitalists – to wield that power if it's going to win? Wouldn't anything else require that every arena of class struggle around the world just spontaneously defeat the capitalist state at once, so that no remaining states can colonize one another?

Let me put it this way: if socialism/communism/anarchism/whatever is going to win, it has to defeat a lot of state militaries that actively seek it out and destroy it when given the opportunity. Think NATO. Russia is fighting NATO indirectly in Ukraine right now. Russia, with the full power of the state to draft conscripts against their will, an enormous military-industrial complex, advanced drone technology, and air superiority (-ish) only advances some few meters into Ukraine every day. And that's with NATO being unable to deploy their troops directly. So the revolutionary forces on our side have to fight the same enemy, right? Except in the case of a revolutionary war, capital is in an existential struggle that it will do anything to win, including another Holocaust. So how does a non-state militia fight that? Even in the case where you're not fighting them directly because you're a revolutionary outside of North America and Europe, what are you gonna do to defend your revolution when American and Western European billionaires go after your resources because they're no longer guarded by a comprador bourgeoisie?

And I don't mean this as a general criticism, I mean it as a very specific assessment of why (even as much as I might align with some of the morals) I can't really see eye to eye with an anarchist strategically. Obviously you can ask me why this matters when no flavor of the left has any kind of military presence in the West, so it's not like the MLs have a huge advantage in this particular arena. But I think that for me to take some revolutionary ideology seriously, it at least has to be possible. Otherwise I would just say I believed in anarchism but simply vote for liberals when no one is looking (i.e. what every single anarchist online who shamed other leftists for not voting for Biden or Kamala was doing).

In my estimation, socialist revolutions and national liberation movements will continue to happen in countries in the global south as the Western IMF/NATO/World Bank system loses its hegemony and climate crises break out in the next couple of decades. In all likelihood, those revolutions won't get rid of the state. They'll have neighbors that will still be in the neoliberal system with guns and US bases pointed at them, so they'll probably build more state. I think that the international capitalist class could only possibly be defeated with state actors like this stretching empire thin. I don't think there's any way in hell I could be convinced that those people should do the opposite and try organizing without a monopoly on violence.

[–] Amnesigenic@lemmy.ml 0 points 1 month ago (2 children)

Your thousand page zine is worthless

[–] FunkyStuff@hexbear.net 6 points 1 month ago (1 children)

You know, Lenin often talked about the necessity to learn from all sources of knowledge, even bourgeois sources. I think it's pretty likely that Anarchists have very decent analysis and critique of capitalism that could be useful for anyone.

But it appears that unfortunately there's no one actually reading it based on how many comments from different users there are in that thread after a couple of weeks. TBH I only participated in Hexbear's anti-imperialist reading group for like 5 weeks myself, I guess it would be a good New Year's Resolution to get back to it.

[–] Amnesigenic@lemmy.ml -1 points 1 month ago (1 children)

I think that's extremely unlikely

[–] FunkyStuff@hexbear.net 5 points 1 month ago (1 children)

Even if you read it to do exactly the opposite of everything they say, it still has value!

[–] PM_ME_VINTAGE_30S@lemmy.sdf.org 0 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago) (1 children)

Implying your literature is not also a thousand page zine 😆 like that's not even an insult

[–] Amnesigenic@lemmy.ml 1 points 1 month ago

Wrong and wrong