China is a democracy, even studies by conservative western institutions show Chinese people have higher satisfaction with their government, more belief in the importance of democracy, and more belief in the democratic nature of their government than western European and American citizens do for their own governments.

They have a more comprehensive democracy too. Consultative processes and deliberative processes are enshrined in institutions in a way that they are not within western bourgeois democracies.

[+] Fizz@lemmy.nz -11 points 2 months ago (2 children)

I'm not sure that link helps you at all. It doesnt mention anything about china being a democracy and proves my point.

"95.5 percent of respondents were either relatively satisfied or highly satisfied with Beijing" while 11% were satisfied with local government.

Bro cmon dont tell me you dont see what's happening here. China plays propaganda for its citizens constantly and punishes anti government thought. But not for the local government. This poll doesnt accurately capture sentiment became people do not have freedom of expression in china. I'd believe that most people like the government, its done very well but 95.5% is a joke.

[–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 11 points 2 months ago (1 children)

You misread. It said 11% were very satisfied, the satisfaction rate with local government including "moderately satisfied" is 70.2%.

Further, the study acknowledges and accounts for your fears of "brainwashing" (which, itself, is a baseless theory):

Although state censorship and propaganda are widespread in China, these findings highlight that citizen perceptions of governmental performance respond most to real, measurable changes in individuals’ material well-being. Satisfaction and support must be consistently reinforced. As a result, the data point to specific areas in which citizen satisfaction could decline in today’s era of slowing economic growth and continued environmental degradation.

[–] Fizz@lemmy.nz -4 points 2 months ago (1 children)

Yeah I was wrong on that. The article framed it weird by talking about the 95% rate then saying local government was considerably less favourable.

It is obvious to anyone that people living under and authoritarian regime are not able to freely express themselves and that was not accounted for in the paper you linked. The paper even confirms people are heavily propagandised and is more highlighting the trends match economic growth.

https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/china-quarterly/article/do-chinese-citizens-conceal-opposition-to-the-ccp-in-surveys-evidence-from-two-experiments/12A2440F948D016E8D845C492F7D0CFE

This paper suggests its off by about 28 points due to peoples fear of expressing anti government beliefs.

[–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 8 points 2 months ago

The article is written by a generally anti-China group, hence why they tried to spin it as being unpolular locally, rather than just less popular. The central government being more popular makes sense, as its the one that tends to enact the most major changes that have uplifted the living standards of Chinese citizens.

Further, the Cambridge examination is biased. If you read the paper, they state that at the outset, their desire is to prove that Chinese citizens are in constant fear of the CPC in order to discredit the Ash study. Even then, we can see that approval rate for the CPC is overwhelmingly positive, while party approval rarely exceeds 50% in western countries.

In the end, you have a hypothesis that is non-falsifiable: if the CPC's approval is high, it's because the citizens are in fear and are brainwashed, if the CPC's approval is lower (though we will see it's somehow never negative), then this must be "truly accurate" and indicative of fear and brainwashing. You set out from the beginning to prove your hypothesis, not to understand why China is constantly improving and why the public supports their system, when both surveys tell you: it's because the system works, and the people have dramatically improving conditions year over year.

Finally, repression of speech most directly applies to businesses and wealthy individuals, not to random citizens. China is Socialist, it oppresses the bourgeoisie and restricts their speech, so that the US and hostile powers don't try to use their heavy financial Capital to fund misinformation campaigns and foment political instability in order to get China to open up its markets for total foreign plundering, like what the US did to the USSR.

[–] OurToothbrush@lemmy.ml 11 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago) (1 children)

Not a dude, please don't "bro" me

Here is another helpful link, on citizen perception of the importance of democracy and whether their government is democratic.

It was founded by a former NATO secretary so it has a pro-western bias.

https://allianceofdemocracies.org/democracy-perception-index

Here is a chart sourced from its its 2024 report. As you can see Chinese people have more faith in democracy and the democratic nature of their government than westerners do.

The whole brainwashing thing is nonsense, as Cowbee pointed out you misread the data on the 11 percent. It seems like you are misreading data to support your preconceived notions.

[–] Fizz@lemmy.nz -5 points 2 months ago (1 children)

None of that is democracy. Perceiving democracy based off a few unrelated vauge measurements is not democracy. Thats such a weak citation.

I haven't read the cowbee comment yet but I have absolutely no faith that they have any point.

So you think 95.5% is accurate and there is no brainwashing going on. People must just love authoritarian regimes because they always report near perfect satisfaction polling results.

[–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 9 points 2 months ago (1 children)

"Brainwashing" doesn't exist. It's a theory pushed by the United States during the Cold War to offer an explanation for why citizens in Socialist countries supported their systems. Read Masses, Elites, and Rebels: The Theory of "Brainwashing" if you want to learn more about the subject.