Many thanks to the person who shared that you can ask your local Chinese embassy for a copy of „The Governance Of China“.
I reached out to the Chinese embassy in Vienna and got not only a super friendly response, but also an invite to the embassy + 6 copies of the German translation (2x II, III, IV)!
Pop quiz: Can you name one reason why China might be hostile to foreigners smuggling drugs into their country?
Alternatively, shut up and walk through this door:
Aren't they also hostile to their own citizens growing/having/smoking weed?
not really, 15 days in jail and a 2kYuan fine is not that bad tbqh
First offence is short. Second is multiple years. Shouldn't be any jail time at all though...
I do agree it is unfortunate that we live in a world where people smoking plants is a contested topic, but there are bigger concerns for the socialist movement and hopefully as the future improves these barbaric laws will eventually no longer be needed. In short, it is what it is.
Hey, at least help ain't illegal!
Drugs are really no good for society
Of course, their laws aren't racist. And their opium crisis was also perpetuated by local traffickers and growers as well. (Warlords would fund personal armies off opium sales, for example)
I get the racism around drug laws in the US, but racist laws aren't the only kind of bad law. It's whatever though. I'm not here on some "China bad" bs. I just don't think anyone should be punished for smoking weed.
I mean, I agree, i want global liberalization of narcotic law, really as a right to bodily autonomy first and foremost. But it's a complicated subject with a fraught history in many countries. Drug criminalization is not just governed by national law but also international treaties at the UN (and LoN, drug laws are old af). And its global criminal status also chokes the supply and transport which makes the drugs trade extremely lucrative and thus lots of shady powerful characters (like the CIA) have a interest in keeping it illegal globally.
It would need to be an international effort negotiated multilaterally like climate change or AI. Until then just leave your blunts at home if you go to Asia, its not associated with fun times and Bob Marley, more like exploitation and suffering unfortunately.
I'm aware of the history and in particular the US DEA role in Asia. It sounds from your comment that we are in agreement around the fundamental ethics of the issue. That's all I'm really saying. I accept that the present is built on the foundations of the past, and that some things change more slowly than others. I haven't smoked weed in over 20 years, but that doesn't mean I think anyone should be punished for it. When I travel I'm more concerned with the quality of the local beer :)
The Chinese government is not big on drugs in general, yes. Part of that is that, like most elsewhere, the higher ranks of the CPC tend to be older and more socially conservative, but also China has some very understandable generational trauma about drugs from the Opium Wars and ensuing century of humiliation.
They do have very strict laws regarding drugs largely due to the historical problems they had.
It’s definitely something I hope changes in the future but unfortunately don’t think it’ll be for a while based on talks I’ve had with even young people there.
See this is weird to me. What do you mean you hope it changes in the future? The people there don't want it to change. Thats why it's like that. If the chinese people wanted there to be looser restrictions on drug use there would be. Every chinese person i talk to agrees recreational drugs are "poison".
Why should people from outside China be projecting their own desired policies onto China? You can push to have drug legalization in your own country if you want it, but why would you want China to do that?
In my house we do not do drugs. If my neighbors want to do drugs in their house thats great i wish them the best, but if they try to come to my house and do drugs, or try to make me do them, it will be a problem. Respect the Chinese peoples choices. Even if you don't agree personally.
It's true that the Chinese population in general are anti-drug, but they're not a monolith. Lots of young Chinese enjoy(ed) recreational drug use, especially prior to the crackdowns in the late 2010s where many were caught and severely punished.
That is true of everything. There are minority groups that want all sorts of things the rest of the population wouldnt want. Democracy isnt about pleasing everyone its majority rule.
That's a limited view of democracy. It wouldn't be democratic to limit the rights of queer or ethnic minority people just because a majority supported it.
Obviously recreational drug use is a step well below identity, but in general we should be supportive of people being able to live as they want to live if it doesn't affect other people.
I'm very supportive of China but I agree with the other poster, their drug policy is draconian and I hope given time they safely and responsibly liberalise.
Human rights are not the same as the right to do drugs. China does not permit gay marriage for example but they do not stop gay people from living their lives, and you would never be assaulted in China for being gay no matter how much someone doesn't like it. Its not something that harms others so youd never be punished for doing it. Gay people existing does not effect the rest of society.
(Also important to note the differences in general in how marriage is viewed in China. Its a lot more transactional. But thats changing, and they have considered allowing gay marriage too recently. So i expect they'll eventually allow it as the society shifts its views on marriage.)
Drug use does have an effect on the rest of society though. You are still exposed to 2nd hand smoke in public places for example, and it is a burden on health systems that the rest of society has to pay for.
The west is all about individuality. That is fine for you, and if you want to insist on a society structured around having as much individual freedom to do drugs or own guns or whatever as possible thats fine for you. That's not how China is. China has the freedom to live a comfortable life, to be healthy, and to participate in a harmonious society. Drug use is not a part of that. China prioritizes the collective good over individuals. That means you are not allowed to do certain things. You may see it as draconian, but that is your own cultural, as you say liberal, perspective.
Do you see the difference between the two positions we are arguing? You insist that China and all other nations must have the same drug policy you think is best, but i am saying you can have different policies in different cultures and nations. These policies are not a one size fits all, and not all places should be the same. The world would be quite boring if they were.
China may be strict yes, but that is a product of the time we live in. China must maintain a strict social order to prevent subversion by outside influence via any method available. So in all things, not just drugs, the punishments for breaking the law can be strong. China also though has in their criminal code crimes of necessity. Where if you can prove that you had to break the law for your own need, like needing food, and that you tried to minimize the harm you did, and only took what was needed the charges can be dismissed. This is a demonstration of a different set of priorities to the west. China strives for social harmony, and the law is designed in a way to maximize that. In some cases that requires a strong hand, and in others it requires understanding, and leniency.
China may be able to be more lenient on someone who is addicted to drugs personally. To focus on getting them off the drugs as a medical issue maybe. But a person who distributes them is another matter. And they already do make distinctions based on this. Maybe it should be more refined, but that does not mean drugs should ever simply be allowed, and certainly not that anything other than allowing drugs is somehow bad.
In many cases people in the west only use drugs as they do because they either do not have access to professonal medical care, not an issue in China, or they are coping with existing in a society that is not pleasant to live in. Also mostly not an issue in China. China is a socialist post-revolutionairy state and people find fulfillment from things other than recreational drug use. They have community, and a good quality of life. When someone needs medical care they do not need to handle it themselves. They go to a doctor. They recieve medications with proper doseage and are given specific instructions on its use.
Drug use is something we should strive to reduce the need for, and China does that quite well. These policies are generalized and may need refining. Much like how poverty elimination policies went from being blanket generalized ones that didnt work for everyone to being more focused and personalized efforts. The generalized approach is a first step on a long road to eventually eliminating the need for recreational drug use entirely. Which i imagine would eventually even include things like alcohol, and tobacco. As if people have truly fulfilling lives otherwise they wouldn't need or want those things.
Personally I have a universal view that people should have as much individual freedom as possible while not negatively impacting the lives of others, I'd like this to apply anywhere in the world.
And I don't agree that a collectivist society and individual freedoms are contrary. Chinese people have many individual freedoms; they can love and live how they want, and they can choose to hurt themselves with drink and tobacco and McDonalds if they want, of course with sensible limits to avoid impacting others. Drug policy is different, it's hardline, and I don't see why that has to be the case.
I'll say now I'm personally not pro-drug use, and I have no issue with states discouraging harmful lifestyles, but at the same time I'm never going to support jailing people for smoking a native plant in private.
I think that many people from the west just see the most severe punishment and apply that to all cases. Prison times in China for drugs are less than even America usually. Death penalty or long prison times are only in severe cases.
I have close Chinese friends who have done jail time for recreational drug use. I don't think that was fair and I stand by that. It's unnecessary, and in my opinion not positive for either them or society.
Honestly I think we're just going to have to agree to disagree otherwise.
It sounds like maybe you think its more severe than it is. Someone using personally caught with a small amount does not generally go to prison. I had DeepSeek summarize Chinas drug laws for you. I think they are quite reasonable honestly. Maybe could be a bit more lenient in some ways and be fine, but they do have a focus on getting people in rehab.
China enforces stringent drug laws under its Criminal Law and Anti-Drug Law, with severe penalties for offenses. Below is a structured summary of key provisions and punishments:
1. Legal Framework
2. Key Offenses and Punishments
A. Trafficking, Manufacturing, Transporting, or Selling Drugs (Article 347)
B. Illegal Possession (Article 348)
C. Drug Use (Anti-Drug Law)
D. Other Offenses
3. Key Notes
China’s approach emphasizes deterrence, combining criminal sanctions for trafficking/manufacturing with compulsory rehab for users. The death penalty applies to high-volume trafficking, reflecting the strict stance against drug crimes.
It’s more that I would like to move there but the strict drug policy on weed would be problematic for my wife and I. That’s why I said I hope it would change in the future.
Obviously the majority of people there currently do not want that and I respect that so I don’t expect them to change based on my personal preferences or anything like that and would not do anything like that while there visiting.
I understand, but that's the thing about moving to another place. You must choose the place that you fit in best, and just accept it as it is. If you are truly committed to moving to China you should consider that maybe the weed issue wouldn't be your only barrier to assimilation. Are you prepared to change yourself to fit in there?
Why? Why should a successful policy that protects China and the Chinese people change? This is not like the US's failed "war on drugs", this actually works and prevents all kinds of bad secondary effects. You realize that the international drug trade is intrinsically linked with imperialism? From the opium trade of the 19th and early 20th century to the CIA's drug smuggling, empire has always used drugs to further its nefarious aims.
We recently even had a post about the history of how drugs were used specifically against China, and not just in the Opium Wars: https://lemmygrad.ml/post/7620593
I’m well aware of the history and effect the Opium and other hard drugs have had on China and understand why that’s lead to their current policy.
I was talking about weed specifically with my comment but should have been clearer.
Edit: Also again I’m not expecting them to change policies just for my personal preferences, the majority of people there support the policy so I respect that
About cannabis specifically i agree with you. But given China's history i also can't fault them for choosing to be cautious.
Yeah I just had this convo on RedNote. It took fucking decades here in the US to overcome "Reefer Madness". Hopefully it won't take China that long.
China doesn't care about reefer madness, they care about not giving foreign imperialists an avenue to destroy social cohesion by funding organized crime and getting people addicted. Obviously weed isn't that big of a deal vs harder stuff but they are not in a position to take that risk. The century of humiliation and the opium wars were not that long ago, I think it'll be a while before the prevailing view changes.
I think it is analogous to reefer madness. It isn't based on biological or social science. It isn't even based on history, since opium isn't cannabis. Why should domestic production of cannabis be a vector of foreign imperialism? Cannabis is not a western invention. Does alcohol not pose the same and more risk to Chinese society? How do they cope with that?
I have to disagree here, I think for it to be analogous, there would need to be a specific focus on marijuana. China has a blanket disdain for drugs excepting alcohol and tobacco, and that's only because those were already deeply entrenched in society and it would have been counterproductive to restrict or ban them, though there are now restrictions on excessive drinking and smoking in shared spaces to curb the worst excesses.
I think perspective matters a lot here, because to Chinese people, it isn't just about weed being no more harmful than tobacco or something; this is something ingrained in the national consciousness, of drugs being foisted upon a people who didn't want it, and having irreparable damage done as a result. Lumping weed in the same vein as opium or meth might seem like an extreme overreaction to you, but it represents a "we're not taking any chances with this" mentality that derives from prior experience of having your society torn apart by them, perfectly rational in their experience.
This is one of those things where its not CPC boomers being out of touch and overreaching, this is something that the vast majority of people in China hold an opinion on and have presented the CPC with a mandate to do something about it.
That said, I do think at least laws on weed will be relaxed further as China becomes more secure in its position in the world, especially since there's precedent for its use in ancient China and its still regarded as having medicinal properties in TCM, its just judged that the risks are not worth it at this time, give it 20 years or something.
I appreciate you typing that out and I agree that it will take time and more "cross pollination" for attitudes to change in China. I am dubious though of the argument that China's attitudes (towards cannabis and drugs) are unique to it's own history. I think they are basically on track with much of the rest of the world over a contemporary period of time. As you say, even China has a historical relationship with cannabis as medicine. China is also certainly not the only nation with negative attitudes towards cannabis currently. It is only recently that the US and some European countries have been relaxing about it. I have met many people who lump cannabis in with heroin and crack as simply "drugs". It's just been due to propaganda and ignorance.
Why do you care what China does? The Chinese people do not want drugs in their country. The word for drugs in chinese is poison. This is not some directive from the government that people do not agree with. The majority of Chinese people don't want drugs to be allowed, and China is a democracy. The people decided so respect their choice please. If you want drugs in your own country you can decide that too. Let China make its own choices.
Chill out please. Am I not allowed to have opinions about China? Not even mild criticism? I understand that the policy is popular. It is similarly popular in Sweden. In both country's case, I believe it is based on ignorance. Do Chinese people not think of alcohol as a drug?
They aren't super fond of alcohol either as far as i've seen. Have any opinion you want, but why presume you can make a better choice for China than the Chinese themselves made? I personally do not do drugs, and that includes alcohol, at all. For me a policy like China's is better. For you a different policy is better. This is because different people in different places need different policies. So what i am saying is it is best to only try to advocate for changes in your own home, and not to try to decide what is best everywhere else.
The Chinese? It's a different drinking culture to the west but they definitely enjoy alcohol. Have a Chinese dinner and watch them slam beers and baijiu.
Maybe just the ones i talked to then. They seemed to really like that i didnt drink.
Look, like most people I have a lot of opinions, and very little power to make meaningful change in my own country, let alone in another. I don't smoke weed either, though I have in the past, and I know a lot of people who do. In my opinion (couldn't force it on China if I tried!), Chinese policy could improve in this area. I just can't see a rational reason why cannabis should be prohibited, but not alcohol or tobacco. That's it. That's all I'm saying. I've been to China, and I look forward to visiting again. Someone did try to sell me hashish in Shanghai. I declined.
Why is it perfectly legal in the US to slaughter a pig or cow for meat, but a dog or a cat is illegal to do the same? That is not rational either. They are both animals. It's a matter of public opinion. Thats the reason. The same goes for which substances are legal or illegal.
That's a pretty good analogy, I will give you that. As a vegan myself though, I'll just answer that there is a difference between killing animals and smoking cannabis. People (irrationally) think it's cruel to kill pet animals because they have learned to identify them as beings deserving of life. I think people should extend this empathy to all animals. I know that they won't, but I advocate for it anyway.