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Jewish Students Chain Themselves to Columbia Gates to Protest ICE Jailing of Mahmoud Khalil
(www.democracynow.org)
this post was submitted on 04 Apr 2025
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I thought zionism was a belief that Israel should exist.
therefore I've always taken anyone who says,"I'm not antisemetic, I just think Israel shouldn't exist (IE, anti-zionist)" is a closet antisemite at best. Like a smug dork saying,"I'm not Republican, I'm Libertarian!" And I don't really thinks it's a game of semantics. It is semantics.
I can say that I really think the current Israeli gov't should be exiled on St. Helena and not allowed to leave or communicate forever, but that doesn't mean I'm anti-zionist. People who are anti-zionist seem to only have a selective and limited knowledge of a few thousand years of the history of the area.
Edit: Wow. A lot of "fuck the Jews" (historically from the area and persecuted in every surrounding country). Also a lot of "no, that means what I want it to mean, not what the word's definition is". Very right wingy. One of the topics I once again failed to keep away from. Freaking third rail on Lemmy to say anything about the problems in the mideast other than,"It's the Jews fault." I agree, fuck the settlers and the Israeli gov't right now, but that doesn't seem to matter. Again, very right wingy. Something doesn't work to satisfaction, so instead of fixing it, just get rid of it. Seems like the current US gov't approach to "fixing".
There are whole sects of Judaism that are anti-Zionist. Zionism/Israel are not synonymous with Judaism or Jewishness in any way and there are both secular and religious anti-Zionist Jewish organizations.
Yes, tell us more about people with a selective and limited knowledge of the history or the area.
It's not about Israel existing. It's about Israel existing as an apartheid ethnostate that oppresses and eliminates everyone not of the preferred religion/ethnicity.
Just like it's not antichristian to not want other countries to discriminate in favor of Christians, it's not antisemitic to not want Israel to discriminate in favor of Jewish people.
If anything, it's an antisemitic trope to (wrongly, as demonstrated by the OP and countless other pieces of media) assume that being Jewish means that you support a fascist apartheid regime no matter what they do.
I’m an anti-Zionist because I don’t think Britain had the right to carve up Mandatory Palestine. I don’t think Israel should have been created, but I also think nobody has the right to get rid of them now. There might come a point when the Israeli government is as unsalvageable as the third reich, but just as there’s now Germany where that had been, I don’t think the solution is to just remove the people who are citizens of Israel. I do wish the world were better at enforcing consequences on countries/leaders for bad actions though.
Honestly I think, similar to apartheid south africa, most of the Jewish settlers not there for purely religious regions will either leave once their privileged status is removed or isolate themselves while some choose to attempt assimilation with the native population they removed.
Yeah that's where I land. A painful and difficult, and slow process of trying to figure out how the hell to heal
Well said
Oh yes, an ethnostate.
What could be more normal and healthy?
Republicans support Isreal because they want the jews to leave and make America a white Christian nation.
It's more than that. They support Israel because the Jews returning to the Holy Land is one of the preconditions to kick off Armageddon. They don't just want a Christofascist white ethnostate; they think their evil asses are gonna get Raptured.
The original goals of Zionism have been achieved in 1948. Everything past that has been classical imperial/fascist expansionism founded on a believe of ethnical supremacy.
Create a Jewish homeland in Florida, then. Stop murdering and brutalising the indigenous Palestinians.
To be fair, Florida only seems like a better option because there are almost no Seminole and Miccosukee people (who themselves emerged from the remnants of earlier tribes devastated by genocide banding together) left to object.
Yeah give the jewish people western Germany, eastern France, and let them have Israel's nukes.
It was Argentina
That's the original simpler definition, but as with many words and phrases, time has changed the meaning in real world usage. Modern usage of the term should probably be referred to more as Revisionist Zionism, but everything gets simplified for modern short attention spans.
This is characterized by territorial maximalism and the idea that Israel should conquer more territory, at any cost. This is clearly the modem day Israeli government perspective. Settlements and the denial of Palestinian rights are a core part of Revisionist Zionism because of that. It is not compatible with a two-state solution, much less a one-state equal rights solution. Which is why it needs to be separated from general antisemitism.
I also have to say though that they've had nearly 80 years to figure this out with Israel being the de facto leadership because of British decisions post-war, maybe it's time that the Palestinians had a chance instead. It was those British decisions after all that took the land promised to the Palestinians for their assistance, to create Israel in the first place.
Sort of a side tangent about definitions. I was always taught, by someone that was previously pro Israel, Zionism is simply the desire of return to the homeland. Which is a very watered down dishonest definition hiding the nationalism of a desire for an ethostate. If someone thinks it means just returning home, then their view of others calling it evil makes it feel like antisemitism, even if it's not. People can't communicate because the laymen's words often get used in 100 different ways that don't match. I think that's often one source of miscommunication even among well meaning people. Another is that the anti Israel movement is peppered with actual anti-Semites poisoning the well. I've protested against Israel, but as a Jew it can be very uncomfortable, I've repeatedly met actual anti-Semites that way. I think these things make it very easy for people dug in to see antisemitism everywhere.
I see that reaction from my father all the time. He's a lefty, progressive, but talk about Israel and you have to tread very carefully. He hates the Likud and present day genocide, but is suspicious of the motives of a lot of the outside criticism.
You should explain to your father that zionism did not emerge in a vacuum within the Jewish community. It was controversial the moment it arose and was as supported as yiddishist movements that were expressly anti-zionist. This was an intense divide that even resulted in violence on both sides by both sides. Nazis and the staggeringly entrenched antisemitism of eastern Europe/Russia ended up sorting it out in favor of the zionist anti-yiddishists, though.
His views have already come a long way, I was more using it as illustrative of communication being a big part of the problem here. He experienced a lot of cruel antisemitism in his life, that makes people see things with blinders on because he is reasonably afraid of history repeating itself.
At best? Do you think Israel is a monolith with no dissenting views over what it is and should be? Do you think settlers are the same as those who just want to leave in peace with a two-state solution?
No, Zionism is the belief that all of the land should belong exclusively to Jews and that assimilation of other cultures is impossible.
If you believe in a 2 state solution then you are anti zionist because you think Palestinians have a right to what Zionists consider exclusively Jewish land.
If someone says Israel shouldn't you're right to hear that as suspect.
But that's not anti zionism.
Not sure I get the point. If the Republican votes for Donald Trump and the Libertarian votes for Gary Johnson that seems like an important distinction.
Those aren't semantics.
That means you're anti-zionist.
Do you believe the current borders should expand in Israel's favor to take more land, or remain where they are so Palestine keeps the land it currently has by international treaty.
One answer is Zionist, the other is anti Zionist.
With respect, you don't even know what Zionism is and are basing your response from a dictionary entry.
Do you have thousands of years of history of knowledge?
If so, instead of the dictionary, how would Theodor Hertzl define Zionism?
While I am sure there are many people for whom it's not true for, but making a point out of 'look, even jews are protesting against themselves, surely I'm not antisemitic for wanting the same thing' seems to be a phrase you need to publish if you are unsure if you are a racist.
I sometimes fish around these posts and check for good faith dialogue, but it's usually just seething and steam release. I can't really be angry with anyone seeing red, as it is a truly atrocious situation. It's just hard to see racism spill through and being upvoted.
Israel should not exist and it is not antisemitic to oppose the existence of a settler-colonial apartheid state