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this post was submitted on 22 Aug 2023
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I keep seeing the sentiment in this thread that if you go to prison you basically deserve whatever happens to you, which is a fucked up stance in itself, but more importantly:
Why do the cows, chickens, etc. deserve to suffer because someone is in prison? Does that make sense in any moral framework? How would you feel if we bagged random people not guilty of anything and forced prisoners to watch them tortured "on their behalf" as a form of punishment? That's pretty much the same situation ethically and everyone would agree it's fucked up.
Yeah I admit I'm very torn about this. On the one hand this idiot kid managed to blast through 50 fucking BILLION dollars of other peoples' money and shows zero remorse. On the other hand, I'm wondering what the ethical responsibility of the state is for accommodating prisoners' dietary needs from medical conditions, religious observation, and ethical/personal preferences eg vegetarian/veganism etc. I don't like punishing people beyond what the court orders, and it is really disturbing when people cheer and joke about things like prison rape.
Seems to me it shouldn't be too difficult to make a vegan "meatloaf" type food that checks all the boxes. Sort of like ordering the Kosher meal on an airplane. It's not gonna be great but it'll get you there.
It's the same thing with the trans woman Jan 6th rioter. She deserves punishment, but it should be humane. No one should be forced to serve a sentence where they don't belong, and we shouldn't be OK with it in any instance just because we disagree with the person. We should take the opportunity to improve things for everyone.
(We can still appreciate the irony of a trans person supporting Trump/Republicans and then being upset that their gender is not being recognized, then asking MTG and that lot for help. It shouldn't happen, but it is ironic.)
I didn't hear about that. I'm trying to think of something funny or snarky in response but I got nothing. Some people 🙄
I'd quickly be tempted to adopt a personal conviction requiring medium rare sirloin, loaded baked potatoes, whiskey/cokes and similar fare. If there's no economy of scale, that's not my issue. Respect my religion. It's very specific.
Veganism is considered a protected characteristic in the UK now (defended in court) so there is precedent for this. What religion or protected ethical stance requires you to follow such a diet?
Wait I'm legitimately confused about this.
I agree with you in the first paragraph.
I'm confused about what you mean by animals suffering because someone is in prison. Don't they suffer regardless of if someone is in prison? Like, the animal would die and be eaten, regardless of where the meat is sent.
I'm pro animal rights and all that btw, I just don't get the connection you are making here.
The meals will (I assume) be allocated on inmate numbers, so the animal will be reared, killed, transported, then thrown in the trash because someone doesn't want to eat it.
More generally this is the weird 'opt out' culture of food, where vegan is considered the exceptional position, which is kinda stupid, in my opinion.
Why would the default be the diet of a small minority?
Because humans don't need meat to survive.
Humans don't need anything but nutrient slop to survive, but the prisons aim for something better largely because it keeps riots down.
Sure, but you could e.g. start with slop and then let people request something different. That's what I meant by 'default'. Perhaps there's a better world?
I sure there's a fancy word in psychology, but it's like if everyone is given choice x automatically, then it shouldn't be a surprise that x seems to be what people prefer.
I've noticed a similar thing in the Subway sandwich store: there are approximately the same number of vegetables and meats available, but if you look at the menu there is just one 'veggie' option, and a multitude of different meat combinations.
You could, but the only reason to do so would be to accommodate a small minority's ethical dietary decisions, which is the opposite of a default.
No one's going to chose the slop so there's no point in having it.
As for subway, their menu is largely determined by sales. They do trial other options occasionally, and the ones that are popular stay.
Here's the definition of default I'm using (from Google):
My argument is that the default meal including meat is what makes including meat the most popular choice, not the other way around.
It's not weird that it specifies a computer program, the use of the term to mean the standard option comes from computing. It's the value chosen when the computer defaults, as in fails to pay it's debt (in this case debt being the value it was looking for).
I don't think there's any evidence to suggest that people prefer meat because it's the default option and not the other way around.
They're saying that animals suffer because people eat them. That, therefore, all humans should be forced to a vegan diet.
They did not say that at all. They said, if you are a vegan and consider animal slaughter a form of torture for animals and you are for some reason imprisoned, is it reasonable punishment to force you to accept this torture of a third party (the animals) on your behalf?
Ah ok, I get what you are saying now. Got it.
I think the missing link is that the prison warden doesn't even think about the animals - they just think, this is food, eat the food. They aren't intentionally causing animal suffering, its just a build in part of the system that society as a whole has accepted as normal. So someone not eating the food is just being annoying, in their eyes, regardless of their reasons.
Is this ethical? Fundamentally no, because it accepts animal suffering as a premise. But it makes sense why the prison isn't accommodating them.
that is what you believe they think, it is not at all what they said.
My friend you have not seen a slaughterhouse video, have you?
The Dominion movie will change the way you look at things, especially the carbon dioxide chambers they use to suffocate pigs. Shit's whack, man.