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this post was submitted on 16 Oct 2024
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If you’re getting convinced by anti-green rhetoric, I don’t blame you. The greens are pretty bad.
You can always vote for the party for socialism and liberation instead. They’re running de la Cruz on a platform of Palestinian statehood and an end to arms shipments to israel.
Or don't vote against your own interests by voting third party. Because First Past the Post means that any third party is going to act as a Spoiler, siphoning votes away from the major party that is ideologically closest to the Spoiler.
What you should do is hold your nose and vote against the literal fascist.
Then on November 10th or so (for incumbents that win) and Jan 10th or so (for the newly elected), start writing actual letters to your congressmen, Call them, email, seek them out in person at meet and greets, and push for voting reform.
Now, the temptation will be to advocate for RCV. This is the wrong move as well. RCV is inherently broken and can actually produce worse results than First Past the Post, while also having some diehard fans who promise the fucking moon. No, if you want third parties to have any chance at all of growing and possibly winning, you need to advocate for Approval or STAR.
So remember, start pushing voting reform the second we kick the fascist to the curb. Push on day one of the new session, and keep pushing. Do the work ahead of time, and maybe, we can revisit the third party issue in the future.
No.
I haven’t held my nose for a democrat for going on fourteen years and I’m not going to start now.
I’m politically active far beyond voting and have spoken face to face with several representatives. They don’t care or listen.
No amount of voting reform will fix the fundamentally unjust American political system.
I have been doing the work and will continue to do so. Voting for PSL in this election is part of that work.
If you’re reading this, don’t fall for the “oh if only we had star or ranked choice” fiddlefarting around the edges garbage. We live in under a fundamentally unjust political system and especially when both major parties are advocating in support of genocide there is no reasonable argument for performing the calculus required to declare one the lesser evil.
Walk away from omelas.
it must be really nice to be privileged enough to have this viewpoint. and all for what? so you can give yourself a nice ethical pat on the back when you help siphon from the dems, and the gop comes after women and minorities? not sure what your background is but damn dude that's some fucked up shit
Ok I've heard all kinds of different reasons someone might be privileged, but doing work on the ground for years and laying the groundwork for real activism rather than whatever the hell you call this terminally online bullshit, is now what you people call privilege?
This shit is why Occupy died.
ground activism is great! but this person's comment pretty much sums up to "whichever if the two candidates win in November, I won't be effected enough to consider not tossing my vote into the trash to prove a point," as do all 3rd party arguments. that's privileged.
many many people quite literally have their lives on the line with this election, it's extremely disrespectful to put them all in danger for some self centered, ill-thought out attempt at morality.
Occupy died because of "terminally online bullshit"? I guess that terminally online bullshit is either more effective than what you're suggesting or your analysis sucks.
One whole paragraph followed by a comment like that implies someone is usually talking about the whole episode going on and not just the keywords you singled out.
I still don't get why you think occupy died, but regardless it wasn't because of online shit or coopted lingo.
I've bumped into a bunch of you online socialists before and every one of you thinks your efforts made some profound difference when in reality socialism is still a nothing nowhere movement in the US and we get more fascist every election cycle.
And whose fault is that? When you give your vote away for free you get rightward drift. Make the fuckers earn it instead of leaving the switch on Vote Blue No Matter Who like the good little liberal you are.
It's the collective fault of the American electorate.
Yep, people here call me privileged too.
Um, I'm biracial, bisexual, and barely make above minimum wage. But because I disagree with some on here, I'm "privileged." lmao
Friend, people say I'm privileged just because I'm shilling for Trump, er, I mean Stein, or Socialist stuff or something. Can you believe that shit?!
"Debt-free" "Woke-free" (Both according to your profile) You're privileged as hell dude.
How does that make me "privileged"?
I'm not white. I'm not straight. I grew up in poverty. I'm not rich. I don't have a high-paying job. I don't have college education (yet). So tell me, how am I privileged?!
And yet somehow you're debt-free.
And yet somehow you're woke-free.
I can't connect the dots for you, but geeze.
I saved to buy my crappy car. I saved to buy my crappy bike. And I pay for school, one course at a time (which is why I still don't have a degree.) I took a job as a janitor so that I could work somewhere with tuition reimbursement. Networked my way up to teacher's aide. Pay is 10 cents more.
What does that have to with anything about sexuality or being privileged?!
You know, just because someone believes differently than you, doesn't make them privileged.
I'm a biracial, bisexual, poor dude. Nothing about me is privileged. You make more money than me, I promise. Are you privileged?
Maybe they just like the GOP but don't want to admit that they like them.
They also completely disregard the fact that the Voting System itself causes the very problems they have with the political system.
First Past the Post is 100% the reason why we vote against a party, rather than for a candidate.
That combined with the Permanent Apportionment Act of 1929 have caused all sorts of problems. That too is something to advocate against. But one thing at a time.
What background do I need to have in order to be allowed to recognize that the mathematics of lesser evils don’t make any sense?
Is there some amount of subjugation I can be under that allows me to have a materialist analysis?
Literally me: Don’t encourage these scumbags, don’t wait another moment to stand up for what you know is right, voting is the easiest way to make your voice heard!
You: wow, must be nice!
If youre reading this, don’t listen to people who try to mobilize identity politics against you. They don’t know or care who you are and would hate you more if you were a minority speaking out.
A mathematically illiterate one.
See, we live under a system of First Past the Post, otherwise known as Plurality.
It's a system that forces a two party system. Not as a conscious choice, but as a consequence of the very system itself.
Here's the kicker. Plurality voting actively punishes you for supporting a third party.
If you siphon votes away from the lesser of two evils, the greater evil wins.
It's a pretty simple concept. And since we are just weeks away from the election, anyone who is actively pushing for third parties is automatically suspect.
Because the problems with Plurality are not some newly discovered quirk. They've been studied for centuries, but most extensively by Kenneth Arrow in the 70s.
What I'm saying is that most of the money given to support Third Parties, comes from people who are on the opposite side of the spectrum from those Third Parties.
Simply put, Trump and company throw money at the Greens and Socialists to siphon support away from the Dems, so that Trump and company can win with fewer votes.
So you, advocating for a third party, are mathematically indistinguishable from a Trump supporter.
Wow if third parties are so powerful then how come you’re not voting for one too?
It seems like a great way to force the major party of your choice to pay attention to your politics.
I'm not voting Third party because I'm not a Trump Supporter.
But you may be one. Mathematically speaking.
My vote isn’t going to be counted for trump, and is for a party in opposition to his program.
You have a funny way of figuring out if someone is a trump supporter. Is it perhaps based on the old “with us or against us” chestnut?
You should know before you keep pushing that line, I will not vote Harris. If there was no party for socialism and liberation, I’d vote a different third party. If there were no third parties, I’d write a candidate in.
If you want to pick up a Harris vote, look elsewhere.
But you're publicly advocating for others to drop their support of Harris in favor of a third party.
Which is mathematically identical to telling people to vote for Trump. So I name thee a Trump supporter, because that's the only person who benefits from your actions.
Man. Its really sad seeing people out here pretending they've got a math degree. Out here saying shit like not 7 equals 6. Get the fuck out of here with that dumb shit. Being a part of the subset does not make you the whole fucking set. If a vote for PSL or Green or fucking whatever, means more left leaning politicians elected locally and nationally, then great. It absolutely does not support Trump. It supports making the DNC maybe fucking listen to the left for once. Stop fucking going further and further right into pushing back against immigration. Stop supporting committing literal genocide in the hopes israel takes over iran for its lithium deposits and the rest of the middle east for the oil. Instead y'all would rather shill for genocide & becoming more and more evil as long as the other party gets evil fastererer.
But since you love math so much: The Libertarian/Constitution party has 3x the vote of green/PSL. Green/PSL was 0.31% of the total vote last presidential election. Which was 0.1% of the total number of possible votes. Stop focusing on shaming the few who absolutely won't vote DNC but still likely will vote down ballot and instead maybe focus on making your party actually have policies people would give a shit about, or focus on the DNC doing something to actually energize voters outside of making sure Trump runs against them so they can point to big scary. Or like, literally anything that might help you. Shaming 3rd party voters is just going to lose you more elections. Like, holy fuck do y'all learning nothing from 2016? Y'all look at Michigan and freak out about green party, ignoring that even fucking the constitution party had more votes than the tiny gap. and the libertarian party had 3x the amount. Even if the DNC successfully made it illegal to vote 3rd party like they seem to want to, they would've lost Michigan in 2012. They know that too. They just want to scapegoat someone instead of themselves. Stop blaming people other than the DNC. They're the ones who actively fought as hard as they could against any progressive policies. Letting Clinton using the "victory fund" well before securing the nomination in order to campaign against Bernie. literally just shooting itself in the face. Not a surprise they lost while doing that.
Anyways, sorry, people being shills for stupid DNC talking points made to alienate leftists and lose more elections annoys the fuck out of me.
For some fucked up reason, this election is close enough to make every vote matter. So, yes, pulling support from Harris is mathematically indistinguishable from supporting Trump.
Also, I always look down on idiots who think they can accomplish anything by separating themselves from the system. No, we work to fix it from within, or we don't get to fix it at all.
Where?
My top level reply is an attempt to get Green Party voters who are starting to not feel so good to switch over to psl.
Also it’s not mathematically identical because my third party vote isn’t counted for trump.
I’m kinda surprised you care. Your party has written us off, do you not agree with their decision?
[Nobody cares]
[Jill Stein is a vapid, forgettable cunt with 0 plans for governance or policy change]
[You supporting her only makes you look like the same type of human-garbage]
Hope this helps 🫶
I’m literally suggesting people vote for a party and candidate different than stein.
Did you reply to the correct comment?
I'm with you, friend. Stay strong and don't let this community bully you into changing yourself! I support you!
https://alaskabeacon.com/briefs/alaskas-presidential-election-allows-voters-to-rank-up-to-eight-candidates/
there is at least one state that has implemented ranked choice voting
And again, Ranked Choice is flawed to its core. It's the only voting system in existence that fails the monotonicity criterion. Basically it's the only voting system in existence where you can rank someone lower and it increases their chances of winning the election.
Ranked Choice is so flawed that every place that implementes it, has a movement to repeal it. Sometimes a successful movement (Like in Burlington Vermont)
Ranked Choice is a step back and actively harms real efforts at Voting Reform.
Well, more and more people are pushing back against those thoughts. I'm see lots of people tired of waiting and going for third party this year. And it's awesome to see!
Literally throwing away their vote, and helping Trump.
You cannot have a third party under First Past the Post. It it literally impossible and only aids Trump. So yeah. It's not awesome to see. It's aggravating. Because if you advocate for third parties, you're a stealth Trump supporter pretending to actually care.
If the Democrats want my vote they are more than welcome to adopt a thing or two from the third parties that split their vote. How else would I communicate my size as a voter bloc and the specific policies we support, and how could I have any sway in any direction if my vote is to be taken for granted?
They seem to understand this when it comes to Republicans... I wonder why it never goes the other way. Seems that kind of strategy would be much more effective as a viable party in winning voters from a non-viable party, and much easier to triangulate, no?
You want your voice heard? Then actually speak up. Call your Representative. Their phone numbers are public. Write letters, send emails.
Be engaged.
Or throw your vote away. See, the two major parties don't give a shit about what third party platforms are. Well, Republicans sure as hell don't. And since the election is projected to be depressingly close, throwing your vote away on third parties will actively hurt you and your interests. And telling other people to abandon Harris for some rando third party who only runs a candidate once every 4 years, is equivalent to directly supporting Trump.
Nah. If I wanted to support Trump, I'd just vote for him. But I didn't vote for him. I voted third party. Happily! Thank you!
Mathematically you are indeed a a Trump supporter.
Claiming that not voting for Harris means supporting Trump is flawed; using that logic, anyone who isn’t voting for Trump must be supporting Harris.
Voting for a third-party candidate is a choice to support what aligns with your values, not an automatic endorsement of the opposition.
Welcome to Plurality voting, advocating for third parties is mathematically indistinguishable from advocating for Trump.
Stop it unless you want Trump to win, in which case, fuck off.
If I wanted Trump to win, I would have voted for him.
Advocating for third parties is mathematically indistinguishable from advocating for Trump
So yeah, you want Trump to win, because you've been Advocating for Third Parties.
I disagree. But I don't think you should be upset. Trump isn't going to win anyway.
Lots of disagreement with math on your end.
Why the fuck can't we worshill for the Christ-Hating Christian Worker’s Party in peace? God-Satanic dammmiiit!
I applaud you for voting, and for being willing to admit in the Politics Community that you voted third party. Unfortunately this place is so convinced that certain votes are owed to their party that they'll actually downvote you for saying that you voted for the candidate that best represents your interests.
Thank you. We can't let the bullies intimidate or pressure us into silence or from doing what we believe is right. Thank you, friend! :)
Yep! I voted for a different socialist candidate, but I really like de la Cruz. She's awesome.