why did the sino-soviet split have to happen? (lemmygrad.ml)

submitted 1 week ago by borschtisgarbo@lemmygrad.ml to c/chapotraphouse@hexbear.net

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[-] EelBolshevikism@hexbear.net 7 points 1 week ago

Just because the PRC and the Soviet Union share the same ideology doesn't mean they are above geopolitics.

But it does??? What the fuck is class solidarity meant to mean otherwise, it was and is in the best collective interest of the working class for socialist countries to support each other

[-] xiaohongshu@hexbear.net 4 points 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago)

Then Stalin shouldn’t have insisted on the independence of outer Mongolia, the use of Port Arthur (Lushunkou) as joint Sino-Soviet naval base as pretense to station Soviet troops in Chinese province, refused to return the Chinese Eastern Railway (Changchun Railway) rights to China, and keeping Vladivostok (Haishenwei) that the Russian Empire annexed as part of the Soviet territory.

All these infringed on the Chinese national sovereignty.

And these happened during the Sino-Soviet “honeymoon” period when Stalin was still alive. It got even worse after he died, as the USSR turned revisionist and started to expand on its “imperialist ambitions” (a terminology I don’t personally agree with but this is not a controversial thing at all to say in China).

[-] Tomorrow_Farewell@hexbear.net 2 points 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago)

Then Stalin shouldn’t have insisted on the independence of outer Mongolia, the use of Port Arthur (Lushunkou) as joint Sino-Soviet naval base as pretense to station Soviet troops in Chinese province, refused to return the Chinese Eastern Railway (Changchun Railway) rights to China, and keeping Vladivostok (Haishenwei) that the Russian Empire annexed as part of the Soviet territory

So, were the actions of the PRC guided by realpolitik (which requires abandoning grudges), or by grudges like these ones?
Also, not sure why you want to claim military cooperation between the USSR and the PRC being a bad thing.

All these infringed on the Chinese national sovereignty

Notably, they all happened a long while prior to the split, meaning that they couldn't have influenced the supposedly-realpolitikal reasoning for the relevant actions of the PRC.

It got even worse after he died, as the USSR turned revisionist and started to expand on its “imperialist ambitions”

You mean when the USSR was helping multiple national liberation movements in Africa, Asia, and the Americas against NATO colonialism? Those 'imperial ambitions'?

EDIT: Also, I find it rather ironic that I hold a much more realpolitikal position regarding the PRC than you do regarding the USSR and other Russian polities.

[-] EelBolshevikism@hexbear.net 2 points 1 week ago

It got even worse after he died, as the USSR turned revisionist and started to expand on its “imperialist ambitions” (a terminology I don’t personally agree with but this is not a controversial thing at all to say in China).

ah, ok. that actually makes sense. forgive me for speaking nonsense

[-] AssortedBiscuits@hexbear.net 3 points 1 week ago

But it does???

History disagrees with you. The Soviet Union and the PRC inherited the contradictions of Tsarist Russia and the Qing Dynasty, and you can't just handwave that away. Russia was one of the eight nations in the Eight-Nation Alliance that came to oppress China during the Century of Humiliation. Russia also had unequal treaties with China. To make a long story short, Lenin was cool about annulling those treaties while Stalin was less so. Meanwhile, Khrushchev threatened to nuke China. Russia should be paying China reparations for its role in the Century of Humiliation if anything. The relationship isn't equal because Russia owns China for historical wrongs and ought to repay China in the form of reparations. "Uh aktually we're no longer Russia we're the Soviet Union." Yeah, and look what that got you.

[-] Collatz_problem@hexbear.net 6 points 1 week ago

USSR did give China massive help in military and industrial equipment, tech transfer and help in education of specialists. Does it count?

[-] anarcho_blinkenist@hexbear.net 4 points 1 week ago

Uh aktually we're no longer Russia we're the Soviet Union."

oh so you're just weirdly vindictive and petty about this, and hide it under historical dynamics without an actual class analysis beyond "they inherited the contradictions" (without naming these contradictions, in their specifics and implications with real class analysis

and ignoring the actual industrial aid and capital transfers and sending specialists and bringing their political, scientific, military, and industrial leaders to study in their schools for free, and sharing intelligence operations and countless other things; and also somehow holding up historical power imbalances as justifying some of the most unhinged foreign policy decisions the socialist world has ever seen, as if you're more interested in the concept of exacting revenge than in maintaining national and international unity through repairing wrongs)

[-] EelBolshevikism@hexbear.net 3 points 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago)

I just disagree that they're fully subservient to Adults in the Room type decisions between imperialism or more imperialism that "geopolitics" can be used as a stand-in for. I don't think China had a responsibility to suffer the indignities that Khr*shchev and/or the USSR in general put them through. Obviously significant responsibility fell on the USSR to actually not be dicks