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[-] OhStopYellingAtMe@lemmy.world 61 points 6 months ago

Time to play some France France Revolution.

[-] MareOfNights@discuss.tchncs.de 46 points 6 months ago

Wanted to dunk on US voter participation, but got corrected.

Maybe the French wouldn't need to protest 24/7 if they actually voted. Like wtf is this XD

How are you famous for protests and revolutions, but don't participate afterwards XD

[-] arymandias@feddit.de 30 points 6 months ago

Look at the results: one of the lowest retirement ages is Europe, universal healthcare, very progressive tax system. Maybe if Americans disconnected Joe Manchin from the electrical grid and made Washington DC a no go zone once in a while they would actually get something done.

Voting for the lesser of two evils is still voting for evil.

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[-] melpomenesclevage@lemm.ee 22 points 6 months ago

the French get more of what they want than Americans

how the fuck can you say you participate and have a voice if you just vote then do nothing for 2/4 years? never apply any pressure? never make them afraid of you?

[-] MareOfNights@discuss.tchncs.de 7 points 6 months ago

Idk, where you are from, but there are a lot more elections. Most levels of government somehow get elected. Then there is Citizens participation, like local hearings, letters etc.

"Just vote" doesn't mean go elect the president and let all other levels and branches of government be decided by others.

[-] melpomenesclevage@lemm.ee 1 points 6 months ago

uh huh.

in noticing youre still saying "politics" begins and ends at elections. and I'm saying you are why Donald trump (as a political entity) exists.

[-] PhlubbaDubba@lemm.ee 2 points 6 months ago

They live under an even stricter presidential Republic than the US with no regional rights or autonomy, and with a policing system founded by an actual fucking Nazi collaborator with all the brutality that entails, where using gender neutral language even in your own personal writings gets you accused of being a woke college elitist, where a Holocaust Denier's daughter has nearly become the highest official of the land twice on a coalition with members who call for a French reconquista, and where the existence of Algeria as an independent state is still considered a sore spot with a large voting demographic of the French boomers.

But they got healthcare and stuff so totally a socialist utopia compared to America and clearly everything their people do works perfectly every damn time

Question, if the French style of rioting works so much better than voting? Why do they have to keep doing it over the same damn shit far more often than they vote?

[-] Skates@feddit.nl 0 points 6 months ago* (last edited 6 months ago)

Question, if the French style of rioting works so much better than voting? Why do they have to keep doing it over the same damn shit far more often than they vote?

So I leave work the other day and it's pretty dark out and some guy walks up to me and asks me for my wallet. He says he has a knife, but fuck that, right? So we fight and I stab him and run and take the subway home. Question, why is this other dude outside my subway station also asking me for my wallet? Did stabbing the first guy not work? Why do I need to stab multiple thieving motherfuckers per subway ride?

Idk man, I mean we could preemptively stab everyone hanging out near subway stations, just like we could stab anyone running for office. But then we're "anarchists" and "murderers" and "lack moral fiber" and "what if a really nice guy wants to take the subway and enter politics?"

It would be pretty cool though. Just to watch these thieving cunts get aggroed first, for a change. We're always just waiting for them to make the first wrong move, would be pretty nice to deny them the chance for once.

[-] melpomenesclevage@lemm.ee 0 points 6 months ago* (last edited 6 months ago)

so, speaking as someone living under a literal segregationist, whose predecessor and current opponent for next election is a literal Nazi whose father was a Nazi?

where the cops here murder you in your home for fun then annoint your fucking corpse with cocaine and a ceremonial gun to make it all okay, then if anyone sues it comes out if teacher pay?

oh wow healthcare. I have stories about that here. mostly body horror.

gender neutral language gets you called a 'woke elitist' here too.

we certainly aren't doing better than them. and look, they have fucking healthcare and get to mostly live inside and their food isn't all either plastic or poison! yeah their government are racist assholes, but that does seem at least somewhat representative, according to you, so maybe thats just the ugly side of the system working?

[-] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 14 points 6 months ago

Protests and revolutions get actual change, voting isn't as effective. That's not to say that voting is useless, but that meaninful change comes from force.

[-] icydefiance@lemm.ee 6 points 6 months ago* (last edited 6 months ago)

Politicians just ignore protests, especially if they're peaceful, so they don't directly cause change.

The purpose of a protest is to get media coverage for an issue, because that may convince viewers to vote a certain way. Those votes - or at least the threat of voting someone out of office - is what actually causes change.

Revolutions are a different story. They can change things much faster than voting, but they're volatile and can easily end up worse than before. The people leading a revolution are usually not the people you want to lead a revolution (e.g. the Jan 6 insurrection in the US).

[-] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 4 points 6 months ago

Protests are don't do much if they don't carry revolutionary threat. The Civil Rights Movement only worked because there was genuine revolutionary pressure.

[-] MareOfNights@discuss.tchncs.de 1 points 6 months ago

The civil rights movement worked, because the did "non violence" and got a bunch of pictures into the news, of them getting beaten. This lead to empathy and votes.

The revolution and violence part was something completely separate and on the whole mostly counterproductive/irrelevant.

[-] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 2 points 6 months ago* (last edited 6 months ago)

This is ahistorical. The civil disobediance was extremely disruptive and errupted in riots regularly. This is coupled with the Black Panther Party practicing open millitancy. There was genuine threat to the status quo, and this forced concessions. It isn't a coincidence that the US state has attempted to whitewash MLK Jr.'s historical legacy.

The state did not bend merely because it was the right thing to do, they bent because if they did not, they standed to lose more.

[-] tetris11@lemmy.ml 2 points 6 months ago* (last edited 6 months ago)

"change must come from the barrel of a gun"

[-] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 4 points 6 months ago

It doesn't even need to be direct. Cut off supply lines via striking, hurt the profits, and concessions come. The fascists will use every tool in their arsenal, but they can't last.

[-] synapse1278@lemmy.world 9 points 6 months ago

Because the French voting system is flawed, the politicians are corrupt and the choices we are given to vote for presidents are anything between ultra liberal capitalism and full-on fascism...

[-] dream_weasel@sh.itjust.works 9 points 6 months ago

Also your right to protest is well protected.

If you try to protest in the US like France you might as well fucking die lol. Either the cops are going to shoot you or you lose your job after day 4 or less of protesting and your kids starve / you can no longer pay for the gas to get to the protest.

[-] jkrtn@lemmy.ml 5 points 6 months ago

Correct. I think bundling health insurance with employment is primarily to force everyone to work and artificially lower the cost of labor, but a side benefit of forcing everyone to live paycheck to paycheck is they have no time to agitate for change. Also you will be pepper sprayed in the face or beaten half to death by goons backed by the state.

[-] dream_weasel@sh.itjust.works 2 points 6 months ago

That bundle of insurance or benefits with work was originally a fringe benefit to inflate value of positions iirc, but in current times yeah I think you got it.

[-] Fosheze@lemmy.world 2 points 6 months ago

Damn, that sounds familiar as a murican.

[-] Serinus@lemmy.world 1 points 6 months ago

Sounds like excuses. Voting is pretty basic, even if it's flawed.

[-] synapse1278@lemmy.world 0 points 6 months ago

I've not missed a single vote since I'm 18yo, but I understand people who are too fed up to go vote, sadly...

[-] Serinus@lemmy.world 1 points 6 months ago

I understand it, but it's still pretty dumb.

People whine (rightly) about money in politics. You know what that money is used for? Propaganda and media and campaign staff to get votes.

[-] PhlubbaDubba@lemm.ee 1 points 6 months ago

You understand idiots who are giving the game away because not getting a unicorn out of it makes them amgy?

You can be frustrated, but if you then choose not to vote you're just feeding the problem out of spite.

[-] Ensign_Crab@lemmy.world 1 points 6 months ago

It doesn't matter how frequently someone votes, if they don't fake an orgasm at the prospect of their choices being shit and worse shit, some centrist will lecture them anyway.

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[-] fidodo@lemmy.world 6 points 6 months ago

That chart is so inaccurate. The us parliamentary turnout is zero.

[-] MareOfNights@discuss.tchncs.de 2 points 6 months ago

My bad, must be a rounding error

[-] PhlubbaDubba@lemm.ee 1 points 6 months ago

sobs in parliamentary democracy advocate

[-] PhlubbaDubba@lemm.ee 4 points 6 months ago

In fairness 2020 was an exceptional turnout year due to COVID necessitating a development of vote by mail infrastructure, which led to about 40 million more people participating than was the norm before, IDK if that held in 22 but yeah, making voting more convenient leads to more voting, whoda thunk it‽

[-] Dop@lemmy.world 3 points 6 months ago

True, and we dont give a fuck about fixing the economy, we'd rather fix libéralisme/capitalism. Getting rid of the political elite making the business-people elite richer would be a good start. All in all the situation is still much better here from a social rights perspective, but we're following US steps and setting a perfect ground for fascism (which is already on the rise). And far right people vote. And old people who are mostly 'republicans' vote a lot too. And the political elite knows it and targets them. So we're pretty fucked.

Which doesn't mean we won't riot.

[-] CaptainProton@lemmy.world 1 points 6 months ago* (last edited 6 months ago)

They forgot to reserve their right to (literally) hold the gun to their politicians heads. Took back all the power over themselves, just hand it over to some new guys with no durable strings attached.

Still doing pretty damn well compared to countries like Hungary who came full circle in a matter of years.

[-] ILikeBoobies@lemmy.ca 20 points 6 months ago

Be the France Americans think you are

[-] Kolanaki@yiffit.net 16 points 6 months ago
[-] gaael@lemmy.world 16 points 6 months ago

It's been some time since citizen action actually led to pregress in France.

We had worker's rights improvements thanks to strikes, occupations and violence against the factorie's bosses at the start of 20th century, which in turned fueled a socialist movement that got a real left elected in 1936 - to which we owe,among other stuff, mandatory pto for everyone.
We had a great social security system built after ww2, because the resistance against nazis was mostly made of communists and all the major firms had collaborated so they did not have much of a say (some were nationalized when the war ended).

The latest thing I can think of is from the 90s, when the legal weekly work time was reduced to 35hrs (you can still work overtime but your employer has to pay you more).
But the nineties is also the point where the left started losing power, and lots of good thing started being undone (salaries stopped rising with inflation, taxbreaks for the rich and the big companies started multiplying...).

In the last two decades, most of our protests and strikes were not to gain new rights and make our lives better, but to try and stop rights being taken away (alas with little to no success): retirement, workers negotiation power, social security, unemployment...
All of it is under attack from the right (which is in power since then) in what looks like a continued effort to move towards the american ultraliberal way of doing things. Health, education, transportation and retirement for exemple are becoming increasingly privatised - it's easy to do, cut the funding of the public services, watch them drown, accuse them of not being efficient enough, introduce new legislation to make space for the private sector.

I really wish we'd revolt again, and the "gilets jaunes" from 2018-2020 seemed like a step in the right direction (not perfect of course, and the far-right succeded a little in being included in the movement) but was stopped first with extreme police brutality then by the lockdown and it never got rolling again.

Recently, American worker's unions look a lot more french than the french ones do, and I hope we'll be able to get some inspiration from you !

[-] ccunix@lemmy.world 2 points 6 months ago

The problem is that the french workers going on strike has basically become a meme. Look at Canteloup's Monsieur Regis character. SNCF go on strike for fun and no one really knows why.

The last major strikes were because of the retirement age raising to 62. The rest of the world looked on and thought "I'd love to retire at the age you are all complaining about". Hell, I don't even WANT to retire at 62! What will I do with myself?

[-] gaael@lemmy.world 6 points 6 months ago

I agree with the part about french workers on strike becoming a meme, but I wanna stress that it didn't happen by itself.

It's the result of voluntary and sound political strategies from our (economically) liberal governments.
Step 1: "let's make a very offensive law proposition"
Step 2: workers go on strike.
Step 3: "okay let's take back the worst point and still applythe rest"
Step 4: workers' lives are worst despite the strike and the unions lose power and credibility
Sprinkle in the fact that most media were bought by billionaires who aren't too fond of workers' rights, a few corrupt union leaders and you get the current situation.

It's interesting that you mention SNCF (state-owned - for now - french railway) because the always make the reason of their strikes clear and (spoiler) it's never for fun. But when strikes occur, most of the media interview people who wanted to go to work/on holiday by train and can't because of the strike, "economists" who rant about the hundreds of k€ losses for businesses because of the strike, some ass***e from the government who stated "we think the right of strike and protest is very important, but not when it bothers other people" and never the union's heads or the sociologists who can explain how the previous laws have made life worse for the rail workers and how the current one is gonna be worst.

[-] LesDeuxBonsYeux@sh.itjust.works 14 points 6 months ago

Oh mon gars I wish

[-] postmateDumbass@lemmy.world 10 points 6 months ago

What is more American than dehumanizing the next person?

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this post was submitted on 19 Apr 2024
834 points (97.2% liked)

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