What I want to become Vs What I do : programmer

[-] captainjaneway@lemmy.world 119 points 9 months ago

Software engineering is just what any "engineering" field would be if they didn't have standards. We have some geniuses and we have some idiots.

Mechanical engineers, civil engineers, electrical engineers, etc. are often forced to adhere to some sort of standard. It means something to say "I'm a civil engineer" (in most developed nations). You are genuinely liable in some instances for your work. You have to adhere to codes and policies and formats.

Software engineering is the wild west right now. No rules. No standards. And in most industries we may never need a standard because software rarely kills.

However, software is becoming increasingly important in our daily lives. There will likely come a day wherein similar standards take precedence and the name "software engineer" is only allowed to those who adhere to those standards and have the proper certs/licenses. I believe Canada already does this.

Software engineers would be responsible for critical software, e.g: ensuring phones connecting to an emergency operator don't fail, building pacemakers, securing medical records, etc. I know some of these tasks already have "experts" behind them. But I don't think software has any licensing/governing.

Directly opposed to "engineering" would be the grunt work which I do.

[-] ForgotAboutDre@lemmy.world 31 points 9 months ago

Software engineering does have standards and methods to developing software. These standards and methods are applied in Defence and Aerospace applications. Software engineering was developed or conceived by NATO to manage the increasing complexity of software development.

The big problem is people often confuse software development or programming with software engineering. Calling anyone that programs a software engineer. This isn't the case. It's entirely possible to be a software engineer without knowing how to code (but impractical).

[-] captainjaneway@lemmy.world 8 points 9 months ago

Well that's my point. The term "engineer" is protected in a lot of other industries but not software.

[-] ironhydroxide@sh.itjust.works 21 points 9 months ago

"because software rarely kills" Depends on what you mean by rarely. Therac-25 was extremely dangerous due to a software bug. And this was over 40 years ago.

Industrial robot accidents are a lot more common than needed and almost all are due to software "problems" (bad path planning, bad safety implementation, or just bugs in the control system software)

Yes these things kill less than guns, or cars, or cranes, etc. But they still have affect in a lot of those accidents.

There are very few things anymore that don't have some kind of logic built into them. Be it software or analog logic, it was still "programmed" or designed. If there was something missed in design, that can easily have adverse affects that can lead to accidents and death not immediately attributed to the software.

[-] captainjaneway@lemmy.world 6 points 9 months ago

I was comparing it to civil or mechanical engineering. I agree that programming/software is growing and "infiltrating" our lives. That's why I think it will become a licensed/certified term in the future. Software engineer will require a cert and some products will require certified engineers. Whereas web apps developers (most likely) will not use that title most of the time and we will just bifurcate those who work on "critical software" and those that do not.

[-] Kidplayer_666@lemm.ee 11 points 9 months ago

Engineer tends to be a protected term in many countries, so software engineer is no exception. It’s words like “programmer” or “developer” which are probably unregulated

[-] NotSteve_@lemmy.ca 6 points 9 months ago

The weird thing is that engineer is a protected term in Canada but every software dev title I've had so far includes it anyway. It doesn't seem enforced at all here

[-] masterspace@lemmy.ca 6 points 9 months ago* (last edited 9 months ago)

I honestly thought there was too, my official job title / offer includes it in the role, despite the role explicitly having no requirement for an engineering degree.

I always found it funny, how I could do a 4 year electrical engineering degree, then work as an electrical engineer for 4 years, but never do my final law/ethics exam so couldn't call myself an electrical engineer, but could just teach myself python and call myself a software engineer, turns out I was wrong.

It is awkward though, especially in a remote work world, given that we compete directly against American "software engineers" for the exact same jobs.

[-] grue@lemmy.world 8 points 9 months ago

As a software "engineer" and civil EIT, I endorse this comment.

[-] bedrooms@kbin.social 4 points 9 months ago

Software without standards. Am I replying to a person who writes his own OS to run hello world?

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[-] jadero@programming.dev 4 points 9 months ago

I'd be very interested in learning more about how Canada manages "software engineer." Because whatever is being done certainly doesn't seem to include mandating where regulated professionals must be employed or punishing failures.

Saskatchewan's electronic health records system (eHealth) has had a couple of egregious failures that it shouldn't have taken a "software engineer" to prevent.

Several 911 services became unavailable during an outage that happened to also disrupt point of sale payment systems nationwide.

Both of the relevant companies are telecommunications companies (Telus and Rogers, respectively), where one would expect "software engineering" to be conducted by "software engineers" regardless of regulation.

A quick search for breaches in critical personal information will show that Canada is performing about as well as the US. Which is to say, abysmally.

[-] Socsa@sh.itjust.works 2 points 9 months ago

There are definitely quality certifications for software. Plenty of govt acquisitions contracts require such certifications. We probably aren't far from laws or executive mandates which require such things tbh

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[-] SzethFriendOfNimi@lemmy.world 42 points 9 months ago

Which are used to calculate stresses for dams, fluid dynamics for planes and ships, capacity and load simulations for power, and to compile and operate servers.

Software engineers are the pinnacle of engineering.

Check out this book on Amazon (or your library) to see just how clever and useful we really are.

https://www.amazon.com/Software-Engineering-Foundation-of-Modern-Society/dp/B07X66DCLM

[-] Kidplayer_666@lemm.ee 13 points 9 months ago

Son of a gun

[-] sag@lemm.ee 8 points 9 months ago

We are useful?? Thanks You Man I hope my parents also understand that Software Engineering is also a real Engineering

[-] wewbull@feddit.uk 5 points 9 months ago

Software engineering doesn't treat failure anywhere near important enough for me to consider it proper engineering. Bugs are expected, excused and waived, which for anything critical just isn't acceptable in my opinion.

Is software still useful? ... Sure.

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[-] bloubz@lemmygrad.ml 3 points 9 months ago

This person really went and promoted Amazon. Thank you for supporting your family business

[-] Kusimulkku@lemm.ee 4 points 9 months ago

(click the link)

[-] RubberElectrons@lemmy.world 3 points 9 months ago

Meh. There's a saying in my field: "anyone can build a bridge, only an engineer can make one that barely doesn't fall down".

Humorously reductive as it is, software is what makes that "barely" thinner than human calculation would normally yield. So... Yeah. Not what I'd call a pinnacle.

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[-] bleistift2@feddit.de 37 points 9 months ago

Engineers now: We built an airport, 9 years behind schedule and at 233% the cost.

We are rebuilding a train station at (currently) 366% the planned cost and an estimated delivery time of 200% the original estimate, into rock that might swell when in contact with water and heave the station out of the ground, in order to decrease the station’s capacity by 17%

[-] tryptaminev@feddit.de 46 points 9 months ago

This is not the engineers fault though.

It is highly political projects, politicians offloaded their old friends and competitiors onto the boeards and other functions and in the case of the airport major planning was undertaken by a guy who is a technical drawer and not an engineer.

Most of these fuck ups could have been prevent, if the project management was done by project managers with an engineering background and if the owners side would have been represented by peoplewith a technical backgrounds.

Source: i have worked in civil engineering for public projects. We wasted 50% of the time explaining Politicians and MBA bros C-levels why they can't start by building the roof and why replanning half the stuff is a bad idea, when we are already on the market with bids for contractors.

[-] GrabtharsHammer@lemmy.world 8 points 9 months ago* (last edited 9 months ago)

Engineers aren't in charge of graft.

[-] lockhart@lemmy.ml 8 points 9 months ago

estimates are just that, a guess

[-] SinAdjetivos@beehaw.org 3 points 9 months ago

For healthy working relationships and solid infrastructure you under-promise and over-deliver.

For maximal profit and sustainable business models you over-promise and under-deliver.

[-] 1993_toyota_camry@beehaw.org 2 points 9 months ago

The company that under-promises won't win the bid, though. Unfortunately the norm now is to overpromise, and then squeeze as many extra fees and concessions out of the project as possible.

There's also a culture of contractors vs engineers where limits willingness to work together to find solutions. "not my fault".

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[-] jaschen@lemm.ee 24 points 9 months ago

I can't even build python scripts.....

[-] sag@lemm.ee 18 points 9 months ago

You can lie on Internet.

[-] jaschen@lemm.ee 6 points 9 months ago

I can't even lie on the internet. I'm worthless.

[-] nodsocket@lemmy.world 12 points 9 months ago

My python scripts won't compile... I'm using GCC it keeps giving me errors :(

[-] jaschen@lemm.ee 3 points 9 months ago

My ChatGPT just told me give up and run Windows or get an iphone.

[-] udon@lemmy.world 21 points 9 months ago

None of these engineers built a dam, ship, or plane. They did some math and drew some lines, and some other people built the stuff.

[-] force@lemmy.world 21 points 9 months ago

In this context it's heavily implied "built" is used as "engineered/designed", in the same way I "build" a shitty engine for an app

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[-] chicken@lemmy.dbzer0.com 17 points 9 months ago* (last edited 9 months ago)

Programmers mostly aren't really engineers and that's ok. I don't want to be an engineer.

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[-] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 17 points 9 months ago

Do you... do you think we don't have Civil, Mechanical, Electrical, or Computer Engineers anymore?

[-] doctorcrimson@lemmy.today 7 points 9 months ago

I think they're outnumbered by desk jockeys without a math degree.

[-] Socsa@sh.itjust.works 10 points 9 months ago

I mean these days the average EE is a software engineer who is good at math and bad at software.

[-] doctorcrimson@lemmy.today 3 points 9 months ago

I believe that if an Electrical Engineer has qualification as a programmer then the two fields become the higher discipline "Computer Engineer." At least most universities arrange their classifications as such.

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[-] Omega_Haxors@lemmy.ml 11 points 9 months ago

You wanna hear a joke? American infrastructure jobs.

[-] drcabbage@lemmy.ml 7 points 9 months ago

Hey, that's not fair! Sometimes I write 3 lines.

[-] dmalteseknight@programming.dev 3 points 9 months ago

Comments don't count

[-] RattusInox@kbin.social 5 points 9 months ago

You mean “I ask ChatGPT how to write two line Python scripts”?

[-] HubertManne@kbin.social 4 points 9 months ago

some countries actually define what an engineer is much like doctors.

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