this post was submitted on 27 Jan 2024

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149

What happened at the nation's first nitrogen gas execution: An AP eyewitness account (apnews.com)

submitted 2 years ago by robocall@lemmy.world to c/news@lemmy.world

46 comments fedilink hide all child comments

ATMORE, Ala. (AP) — As witnesses including five news reporters watched through a window, Kenneth Eugene Smith, who was convicted and sentenced to die in the 1988 murder-for hire slaying of Elizabeth Sennett, convulsed on a gurney as Alabama carried out the nation’s first execution using nitrogen gas.

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[–] pwalshj@lemmy.world 31 points 2 years ago (3 children)

That website is poison aids. That's the fucking official AP site? We're doomed.

[–] EdibleFriend@lemmy.world 21 points 2 years ago (1 children)

Holy fuck you're not kidding. I assumed when you said that it was going to be just shit all over the place. The ads weren't super intrusive? It was easy to read? But when I got down to the bottom there was shit about a homeopathy treatment for neuropathy that has left scientists speechless.

How the fuck was that on AP

[–] quindraco@lemm.ee 1 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago) (1 children)

What is wrong with your browser? Did you turn your adblock off or something? This is the bottom of the article.

[–] jqubed@lemmy.world 8 points 2 years ago

Wow, that used to be a nice, clean site

[–] LodeMike@lemmy.today 2 points 2 years ago

They also block the Tor network.

[–] rbesfe@lemmy.ca 28 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago) (1 children)

I'm just an armchair medic, but wouldn't a second tube to evacuate exhaled CO2 prevent this? This feels like monumental stupidity on the side of the prison, not necessarily a flaw with nitrogen as an execution method.

[–] LowtierComputer@lemmy.world 18 points 2 years ago (1 children)

Yeah. Considering how they've botched previous executions, this f feels intentional.

[–] KISSmyOS@feddit.de 16 points 2 years ago (1 children)

Doesn't have to be. All these "medical" execution methods are necessarily done by amateurs, because no one who has the proper education can or will use it to kill people.

[–] LowtierComputer@lemmy.world 2 points 2 years ago (1 children)

I disagree. There are plenty of medical professionals who would. There are all sorts of people in every field. Working as a medical professional does not exclude those who support executions.

[–] KISSmyOS@feddit.de 3 points 2 years ago

Most licensed doctors literally swear an oath to use their craft only to heal people:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hippocratic_Oath#Modern_versions_and_relevance

[–] eltrain123@lemmy.world 27 points 2 years ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (4 children)

[–] Akasazh@feddit.nl 21 points 2 years ago (1 children)

The most bizarre thing about the entire debate is that most proponents of the death penalty explicitly want it to be a painful experience.

Everything pushed to make they process more effective and humane meets resistance.

[–] quicklime@lemm.ee 5 points 2 years ago

They're self-convinced, against nearly all studies and evidence and expert consensus, that capital punishment is an effective deterrent.

[–] Steve@startrek.website 21 points 2 years ago

$5 worth of fentanyl would do the job…

[–] KISSmyOS@feddit.de 7 points 2 years ago

Anesthesizing someone is difficult and you need the right drugs. No licensed doctor is allowed nor willing to do it, and no company making the drugs agrees to its use for killing people.

[+] SoylentBlake@lemm.ee -30 points 2 years ago (1 children)

Dude was unconscious almost immediately. His brain was dead but the body takes longer to go. The violent spasms was the unconscious and uninhabited body using the last of its energy, mechanically.

This has been so dramatized it's disgusting. The execution? Humane. The media around it? Must clearly want more suffering.

[–] Trashboat@lemmy.blahaj.zone 6 points 2 years ago (1 children)

humane execution

[–] SoylentBlake@lemm.ee -2 points 2 years ago (1 children)

Life is not black and white. You can deal in absolutes all you want, that just leaves the rest of us here to make the hard decisions, since your abdication.

Jailing people for life is also inhumane, solitary is torture that can lead to permanent damage. But what alternatives are left with? Society didn't ask these people to steal, attack, rape or murder. Some people just choose it. So we have to separate them from the rest of us, for the common good.

Fwiw, I don't favor capital punishment unless guilt is obvious for all to see - beyond a doubt. But if we have to do it, and situationally It's appropriate (some will say it never is), we should do it as humanely as possible. Not that they necessarily deserve that, but ultimately it's a reflection of us.

This is all first world problems btw. If the facade falls, we'll all see people put down with absolute disregard. We have survivors alive today from past atrocity, we aren't even removed in the slightest. Look up the Khmer Rouge and the killing fields, I had a coworker who escaped after watching his brother chopped apart and his mother gunned down.

Purity in your moralism is a luxury most can't afford, unfortunately.

[–] queermunist@lemmy.ml 2 points 2 years ago (1 children)

Jailing people for life is also inhumane, solitary is torture that can lead to permanent damage. But what alternatives are left with?

Rehabilitation and reeducation work camps.

[–] SoylentBlake@lemm.ee -3 points 2 years ago (1 children)

For some, sure.

I'm all for the Scandinavian model, I just don't think the John Wayne Gacys of the world are reformable. I think some people are just not meant to live in the group. If ostracization was still a thing, then let's do that, as if back in the day surviving the wild wasn't effectively a death sentence. You wanna drop these people on an uninhabited Alaskan island? Sure. I'm all for it

[–] queermunist@lemmy.ml -2 points 2 years ago (1 children)

We should strive for a world where we can cure psychopaths. Mental health isn't magic. Everyone can be rehabilitated if we figure out how.

[–] SoylentBlake@lemm.ee 0 points 2 years ago (1 children)

I agree. But we are still left with the here and now and a situation that we didn't ask to be in, that we (as a whole) are forced into.

Believe me, I think the first job of government, everyday, is to pass objective rationalization for their continued existence. I am beyond critical as a default. Criticism of authority is fundamental to any and all rights of free people. Corruption of those that make up the system should be punished at exponential rates. A police officer commiting a crime should be handled like a criminal, not an officer. Should steps be taken to mitigate and help the masses, based off medical expert advice? Absolutely, whole-heartedly.

I understand the arguments against capital punishment and at my core i agree, but in the end we still have this shit show we didn't want to be in to deal with. In an analogy, I don't think blaming the garbage collectors will make people produce less garbage. Let's do the things to fix it, across the board, but that doesn't mean leaving the obvious garbage out to rot and fester in the street.

[–] queermunist@lemmy.ml -3 points 2 years ago (1 children)

I don’t think blaming the garbage collectors will make people produce less garbage.

Your analogy doesn't make sense because our governments create much of the crime they arrest people for lol

[–] SoylentBlake@lemm.ee 0 points 2 years ago (1 children)

I feel like you understand what I'm saying and are just being facetious.

Putting all the moral positions aside, at the end of the day, we are stuck in this situation. That's the reality and it has to be dealt with, like it or not.

[–] queermunist@lemmy.ml -3 points 2 years ago (1 children)

No, I'm being serious. What you're saying is that we shouldn't blame the government (the garbage collectors) because it won't fix crime (make people produce less garbage). I think that's absurd. We can, in fact, blame them for creating crime.

[–] SoylentBlake@lemm.ee 0 points 2 years ago (1 children)

No I'm saying that crime exists, period. With or without government, it doesn't matter, we are born with an internal sense of justice. We know if we've been wronged even before we can walk or talk.

Somebody has to deal with it. You can pick a side politically or eschew it completely favoring anarchy, that's your decision, but SOMEBODY HAS TO DEAL WITH IT.

Here's a better question, let's say the government falls tomorrow. America's out of money, cops, military, Congress, everyone's disbanded.

Do you think there's gonna be less killing then?

I agree with you that government can in fact create crime, and I don't mean by just passing legislation, but actual unethical actions - and that's not to go into war crimes or crimes against humanity.

Fuck i contend the existence of poverty is a crime against humanity.

So here we are at this question. This or that. We can be critical of government for its punishment focused approach to crime, rightfully so, but absent government, does crime disappear? would theft, rape or murder decrease or increase?

I say they'd increase, at least for the initial decade. We're a long way away from subsistence farming, and not necessarily in a good way. In a prolonged grid down environment it's expected 90% perish in the first year. How far would you go to get your family medicine? Cuz if my kid needs meds and the only way I can get them is through other people, well, that's just what I gotta do then. It's not even a decision.

[–] queermunist@lemmy.ml -3 points 2 years ago

So here we are at this question. This or that. We can be critical of government for its punishment focused approach to crime, rightfully so, but absent government, does crime disappear? would theft, rape or murder decrease or increase?

What? I only meant that a different government would produce less crime, and that with the right combination of policies crime could be either vastly reduced or totally eliminated. I'm not an anarchist lol

[–] Chickenstalker@lemmy.world 5 points 2 years ago (1 children)

Just use a guillotine. Almost zero chance of fuck up. Dead within seconds.

[–] robocall@lemmy.world 10 points 2 years ago

while I agree that guillotine is a more humane method of execution, we could also consider ending the death penalty completely.

[+] RustyNova@lemmy.world -36 points 2 years ago (2 children)

Oh my. I didn't realise that it's actually horrible for the person. Imagine grasping for air for 15 minutes! It must be horrible! That guy had a good reason to be scared of going away like that!

... And it's totally not an act made to stop this type of execution. It's not like hypoxia is undetectable by the body, as the gasping reflex is driven by rising levels of carbon dioxide in the lungs, not the lack of oxygen. Nor is it like the subject had any beef against the type of execution.

Come on. This is just fear mongering at this point

[–] Sheeple@lemmy.world 30 points 2 years ago (2 children)

Executions are barbaric period

[–] wildginger@lemmy.myserv.one 5 points 2 years ago (1 children)

Sure, but as far as methods this is considered the ideal to the point of being how most people advocate for legal assisted suicide.

If youre going to legally kill someone, this is the way to do so humanely.

[–] bane_killgrind@kbin.social 10 points 2 years ago (1 children)

Not this way, they had no method to remove the carbon dioxide from his lungs.

It would have been trivial if they used existing methodology, but they didn't bother to emulate it.

[–] valaramech@kbin.social -2 points 2 years ago (1 children)

A pure nitrogen environment does not prevent the exhalation of carbon dioxide (source).

[–] bane_killgrind@kbin.social 8 points 2 years ago (1 children)

They just filled the air he was breathing with nitrogen instead of cycling it through his airspace.... They needed a larger volume of gas to keep the amount of CO2 low enough

[–] valaramech@kbin.social -1 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago) (1 children)

I've seen this claim made multiple times but the articles in question make no mention of it - including this one, unless I'm blind. Do you have a source for this claim?

[–] Scubus@sh.itjust.works 2 points 2 years ago (1 children)

It's not a claim that needs sourced. You put out a certain amount of CO2. Breathing that into a larger volume results in lower CO2 density.

If you have a cup of water that full, pouring that into a swimming pool does not result in a full swimming pool.

[–] Tja@programming.dev -1 points 2 years ago (1 children)

Every claim needs to be sourced/proved, except axioms. Mathematicians had to prove that 1+1=2, and it was not easy.

[–] Scubus@sh.itjust.works 1 points 2 years ago (1 children)

Yeah, but you don't have to prove that, because it's already been done and is commonly accepted as truth. Similarly to how gas laws have already been proven, and as such don't really need to be sourced unless you're getting into something more specific than the basics of hows gasses work.

[–] Tja@programming.dev 1 points 2 years ago

Gas laws have been proven, but every situation is different and there might be other circumstances here that could be affecting the results.

It's not the same breathing in open air, in a room, in a plastic bag or in a scuba rebreather, despite the gas laws being the same the inputs are different.

If someone asks for sources the polite thing is to give them or admit you don't have them.

[–] JizzmasterD@lemmy.ca 2 points 2 years ago

I don’t know. The older I get the more I feel that locking someone a confined space with a bunch of other unintegratables, essentially indefinitely, is less humane. I keep thinking society needs to have some skin in the game making these decisions. Seems like there’s more of that with something decisive like capital punishment than locking someone in an out of the way cage and forgetting about them.

Maybe this was more of an !unpopularopinion@lemmy.world post tho.

[–] valaramech@kbin.social -1 points 2 years ago (1 children)

From the Wikipedia article on Inert Gas Asphyxiation:

When humans breathe in an asphyxiant gas, such as pure nitrogen, helium, neon, argon, methane, or any other physiologically inert gas, they exhale carbon dioxide without re-supplying oxygen.

This leads to asphyxiation (death from lack of oxygen) without the painful and traumatic feeling of suffocation (the hypercapnic alarm response, which in humans arises mostly from carbon dioxide levels rising)

Unconsciousness in cases of accidental asphyxia can occur within one minute.

Loss of consciousness may be accompanied by convulsions[9] and is followed by cyanosis and cardiac arrest.

tl;dr - literally everything that happened in the execution was precisely as expected. Smith did not suffer and was not conscious after the first few minutes of the procedure.

[–] bane_killgrind@kbin.social 10 points 2 years ago (1 children)

asphyxiation (death from lack of oxygen) without the painful and traumatic feeling of suffocation (the hypercapnic alarm response

So this would be fine, but he did have symptoms consistent with hypercapnia, as described in the link you provided

In severe hypercapnia (generally greater than 10 kPa or 75 mmHg), symptomatology progresses to disorientation, panic, hyperventilation, convulsions, unconsciousness, and eventually death.[8][9]

They needed a larger breathable volume to diffuse the carbon dioxide present to keep the man from suffering.

They botched it.

[–] valaramech@kbin.social -1 points 2 years ago (1 children)

Considering both include convulsions and cardiac arrest can be accompanied by agonal breathing, I don't think you can definitively state this.

Smith also resisted breathing for as long as he could at the beginning of the procedure and I think that needs to be taken into account. I won't say they absolutely didn't botch his execution, but I've yet to see any compelling evidence to that effect.

[–] bane_killgrind@kbin.social 4 points 2 years ago

Smith's lawyers disagree, and seek a court-ordered halt to the second execution attempt, scheduled for 6 p.m. on Thursday. They say the new method, particularly the repurposing of a respirator mask, could easily go wrong if the mask's seal is imperfect and oxygen seeps in.

Nitrogen has been advocated for by the right-to-die movement, and used successfully in assisted suicides but is more commonly deployed using a nitrogen-filled hood over the head.

Smith's lawyers have also complained about Alabama's decision to not perform the test outlined in the mask manufacturer's manual to ensure an airtight seal.

Unless they published their methodology, which they refused to do, we won't have any compelling evidence.