this post was submitted on 10 Aug 2023
314 points (98.2% liked)

Europe

8332 readers
1 users here now

News/Interesting Stories/Beautiful Pictures from Europe πŸ‡ͺπŸ‡Ί

(Current banner: Thunder mountain, Germany, πŸ‡©πŸ‡ͺ ) Feel free to post submissions for banner pictures

Rules

(This list is obviously incomplete, but it will get expanded when necessary)

  1. Be nice to each other (e.g. No direct insults against each other);
  2. No racism, antisemitism, dehumanisation of minorities or glorification of National Socialism allowed;
  3. No posts linking to mis-information funded by foreign states or billionaires.

Also check out !yurop@lemm.ee

founded 1 year ago
MODERATORS
top 50 comments
sorted by: hot top controversial new old
[–] Wanderer@lemm.ee 152 points 1 year ago (3 children)

No VAT or fuel tax is madness

I knew about the lack of a kerosene tax for flights but no VAT on international flights is just downright nuts to me.

Bread, Tampons, and books are more highly taxed than (most international) flights. Talk about distorted markets.

[–] Sigmatics@lemmy.ca 41 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Why is this still a thing... this should be the top issue on all political agendas

[–] j_overgrens@feddit.nl 19 points 1 year ago (5 children)

Now I don't agree with it (in fact, I am strongly opposed to the tax exemption), but the reasoning is that this way you create an 'even playing field' for aviators all across the globe. In other words: it's doesn't become more attractive to tank in Arab Gulf states, making their airlines out-compete European airlines.

[–] bouh@lemmy.world 42 points 1 year ago (2 children)

That's always the excuse they make. But it's highly flawed. You can tax the planes that land in your country. They can't evade landing in your country, and they don't get to decide where people want to go.

Either they are complete hypocrites or they are the most useless idiots when it comes to finding solutions.

[–] j_overgrens@feddit.nl 10 points 1 year ago

I would add a third option there: the aviation lobby is too strong, sufficiently suppressing the urge to find solutions. ;)

[–] golli@lemm.ee 6 points 1 year ago (1 children)

I think the issue is solvable for continental flights, but it becomes really difficult for international flights. At least not unless you get others to also support it, for which many sadly wont have any incentive.

Want to tax the whole distance rather than just the portion flown within the airspace you control (which will be minimized as much as possible)? Airlines will split up long distance flights by utilizing airport hubs just outside your jurisdiction. Giving those a major advantage and moving a substantial business away.

Combat this by taxing on an airline level? Airlines will just split into two entities, one serving europe and the other the rest of the world. Again leading to a loss for your economy. And at least for long international distances there is no alternative to flying.

[–] what_is_a_name@lemmy.world 14 points 1 year ago

Sweden just taxes you upon landing. Sure some airlines left and some only fly short connect flights. But those are not easy fixes especially if all of EU was doing this.

[–] GissaMittJobb@lemmy.ml 16 points 1 year ago (1 children)

I've heard this reason being mentioned, but I'm not really convinced by it. If this is of concern, you can tax the combustion of fuel on flights going in or out of the country, instead of taxing the sale of the fuel.

[–] j_overgrens@feddit.nl 8 points 1 year ago

You mean a CO^2 ^tax? Yes please!

[–] Kelteseth@feddit.de 13 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

But this could be said about every industry, right? Oh, if we would be not be taxed, we would be more competitive worldwide.

[–] j_overgrens@feddit.nl 4 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Indeed, but aviation is slightly more mobile than say steel production. It's a bad excuse nonetheless, if you ask me!

load more comments (1 replies)
[–] Sigmatics@lemmy.ca 10 points 1 year ago (2 children)

It's not like the plane has much of an option where to tank. Planes don't tank more than needed for any flight. I struggle to comprehend this point

[–] j_overgrens@feddit.nl 6 points 1 year ago

Well I definitely see Ryanair making detours to, say, Algiers to tank cheaply.

[–] Int_not_found@feddit.de 5 points 1 year ago

Planes don't tank more than needed for any flight.

That is just an objectivly wrong statement.

Fueling doesn't happend instandly and the whole process (inluding new fuel calculations, calling the Fuel-Crew, driving up and attaching/detatching the tanker, signing off paperwork, etc) can take up to an hour, without a single drop of fuel being filled into the tanks.

Planes often fly multiple short hops, well below they maximum possible range (e.g. between the Hawaiian Islands). If the pilots calculate, that they can stay below there landing weight, then they might opt to take fuel for multiple flights. Burning a few hundred kilos more fuel costs less than having a full crew twiddling there thumbs & letting ground personal run around for an hour.

load more comments (1 replies)
[–] nomadjoanne@lemmy.world 10 points 1 year ago (2 children)

I wouldn't say madness. But it is certainly very unfair to the rail industry. They should both be exempt or neither.

I know a lot of people are big fans of trains, but I'm not taking a train from Madrid to Copenhagen for business. It's not gonna happen. Madrid->Paris maybe. They're opening a new line that'll cover the distance in 5 hours.

But within countries trains are absolutely the way to go. At least here in Spain Even if you are on the train longer than the plane, there is no security-state bullshit to deal with at the stations and the experience is much nicer.

[–] alcyoneous@midwest.social 8 points 1 year ago (1 children)

And you don’t have to show up to the train station that long before your scheduled departure compared to flights. Train stations are also centrally located for most people compared to airports. My thinking has been that if it’s around 5-7 hrs by train, the flight will be faster but the time you spend waiting for the flight makes the time you spend pretty much equal out.

I agree! The time it takes to go from my home to the airport, then going through check in, security check, etc, is around the same as just doing the whole thing by train. And I can take a longer nap on the train, always a plus.

[–] PerCarita@discuss.tchncs.de 6 points 1 year ago (12 children)

Cries in German's Deutsche Bahn.

I take the long distance train a lot, over 20 times a year a lot. These are informed tears.

load more comments (12 replies)
[–] MonkderZweite@feddit.ch 82 points 1 year ago (2 children)

Because fuel and oil are still not COΒ² taxed as they should.

[–] kenbw2@lemmy.world 34 points 1 year ago (1 children)

I gather aviation fuel isn't taxed at all

[–] 5am5ep1ol@lemmy.film 8 points 1 year ago

Airline companies are basically organized crime.

[–] j_overgrens@feddit.nl 6 points 1 year ago

The best and most elegant solution.

[–] FlapKap@feddit.dk 49 points 1 year ago

The article presents some good suggestions. It's pretty bonkers that taking the train across borders in Europe is more difficult and expensive than a plane

[–] HenriVolney@sh.itjust.works 48 points 1 year ago

the [air transport] industry’s importance to the economy and tourism sector

That won't age well

[–] WantHelpForPCBuild@feddit.de 11 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Because some EU states let trains directly compete with flights regionally or between bordering states

[–] moitoi@feddit.de 11 points 1 year ago

Italy does this and the train won. It's a good example of how the train can win.

They often aren't. But where I live there is no train. The closest train station is a 4 hour bus ride from my town and it's only connected to the neighbouring country's rail network.

load more comments
view more: next β€Ί