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120
Far-right AfD win in Germany is ‘grave moment’ for Europe, politicians warn (www.theguardian.com)
submitted 2 days ago by supersquirrel@lemmy.ca to c/europe@feddit.org
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[–] verifiedbyme@lemmy.world 13 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago)

Since supersquirrel chose the same misleading title for this thread, I’ll just post my comment again:

The AfD can suck a big one, but they only won the federal state election in Saxonia-Anhalt, with a population of 1.7 million against Germany’s 80+ million. It’s still very worrisome to me, and they won the state in a landslide, but “winning in Germany” hasn’t happened yet, thankfully.

I don’t know why this irks me so much, but it does, and I have nothing to do today so I correct it.

[–] Jimbel@lemmy.world 37 points 2 days ago* (last edited 2 days ago) (1 children)

My guess is the AFD will try to install similar systems as orban did in Hungary. Once AFD functionaries can get their hands on might and government money they will try to tuck as much as possible into their pockets. They talk about patriotism but only act in their own self-interest. They dont even have real plans or visions on how to improve their voters live and are not able to give real substantial answers to journalists questions. But this doesn't matter to a lot of voters because they are either too frustrated by their own lives or the corrupt shit other political parties did or just brain rotted from tik tok. The AFD talking about patriotism makes them feel good and so they can neglect the fact that the AFD will make their live even worse and they can also neglect that the AFD will do ten times the corrupt shit the "mainstream" parties did. It's like a drug making you feel good even while facing doom.

[–] comrade_twisty@feddit.org 11 points 1 day ago

The main motivation of MAGA voters is not that their lives should improve, it's that others should be punished and there should be groups of people who way are worse off than they are.

That's probably the same for AfD voters.

[–] mindbleach@sh.itjust.works 22 points 2 days ago (1 children)

We've tried nothing and we're out of ideas!

[–] supersquirrel@lemmy.ca 3 points 2 days ago

Precisely

[–] HowRu68@lemmy.world 16 points 2 days ago* (last edited 2 days ago) (2 children)

Still haven't seen anything about the role of the disinfo campaign here, which was afaik very sizeable, and extra info graphs about who voted what . Anyone more info?

found this DW source and NTV source.

" According to Platform Wahlen, there have been several acts of influence that can be attributed to Russian actors. Russian propaganda networks such as Operation Overload ("Matryoshka") and "Storm-1516" attempted to discredit the candidates of the CDU, SPD, FDP, Left Party and Greens from Saxony-Anhalt."

[–] generator@lemmy.zip 14 points 2 days ago* (last edited 2 days ago) (1 children)

I just watched the Channel 5 video, and most of them are fueled with disinformation.

Many of then don't even live on big cities with immigrants, but they say that can't go outside with so many crimes

"Inside The Rise of Germany's New Far-Right"
https://youtu.be/l2SjWowpynY

[–] AfterlifeAdventures@lemmy.world 10 points 2 days ago

Fear mongering, it worked in the USA with the snowflakes that voted for the pedophile. Grown ass men, ya know I'm rough and tough, scared like the little cucks they are. Good luck stay safe with the rise of fuck stains

[–] supersquirrel@lemmy.ca 8 points 2 days ago* (last edited 2 days ago) (2 children)

I don't know, I think the misinformation has been that Germany isn't a nation teetering on a collapse into fascism while directly supporting the ongoing Palestinian Genocide.

The failure is from the center to provide anything of value except the capacity to shut down all positive attempts at progress by the left, same as it was/is in the US.

Also the far right is clearly in cahoots with russia but is that really news?

(again, same as in US)

[–] HowRu68@lemmy.world 2 points 2 days ago* (last edited 2 days ago) (1 children)

I'm questioning the validity of this vote due to irregularities in the campaign and external interference I'd start an investigation if I were Germany.

[–] supersquirrel@lemmy.ca -2 points 2 days ago (1 children)

I think you just don't want to face the reality of how much German society apologizes and makes space for white nationalism/fascism.

[–] HowRu68@lemmy.world 1 points 2 days ago (1 children)

I think..

Pease don't put words in my mouth. Don't be like the enemy if you wanna be friends.

[–] supersquirrel@lemmy.ca -2 points 2 days ago (2 children)

shrugs why else do you immediately jump to election interference then?

[–] birdwing@lemmy.blahaj.zone 4 points 2 days ago (1 children)

Putler and his rapist ally Trump have been responsible for frauding their own elections

[–] supersquirrel@lemmy.ca 3 points 2 days ago* (last edited 2 days ago)

Putler and his rapist ally Trump have been responsible for frauding their own elections

Right but the way that has occurred is well documented in both cases with Trump and Putin, what I am asking here is beyond indirect dark money funding of political groups in Germany (which is definitely wrong I am not defending it) what are the mechanisms of interference that are so grave as to make people question the results of the election?

What are the nature of these accusations? Actual faked votes? "Gerrymandering" style manipulation? Deregistration of valid voters?

I don't doubt that Putin would try to do this kind of thing, not for a second but also when I look at my own country... Putin didn't need to make Trump win, we did that all by ourselves, yes russia threw gasoline on the fire but focusing on that is missing the point of fact that we started the fire here all by ourselves.

[–] HowRu68@lemmy.world 1 points 2 days ago (1 children)

you immediately jump to election interference then?

Because there is and was,. Germany and other countries have been trying to cope with it for years. I just don't know the exact details.

So, now that you know that, why did you jump to your conclusions?

[–] supersquirrel@lemmy.ca 2 points 2 days ago* (last edited 2 days ago) (1 children)

Unless you have substantiated evidence to share that this election was tampered with please stop spreading potential misinformation about it.

[–] EuroMod@feddit.org -2 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago)

there's no such thing as potential misinformation when asking questions based on actual facts (e.g. there's a whole wikipedia page dedicated to these).

you are not arguing in good faith, 1-day ban.

[–] Ooops@feddit.org -5 points 2 days ago* (last edited 2 days ago) (1 children)

while directly supporting the ongoing Palestinian Genocide

Thank you for bringing up a perfect example for insane desinformation: No, anti-air corvettes are not used to attack land-based targets but to defend against actual real attacks. No, submarines and torpedos are not air-dropped onto Palestinian civilians but against enemy navies (the famous Palestinian one included 😂). No, armored vests are not weapons used to club people to death.
How dows it feel to be an totally lost propaganda victim complaining about propaganda?

Also the far right is clearly in cahoots with russia

...and China... and the US... and every single one paying. Fascism is a way to continue the capitalist transfer of all money to the top while keeping the population diverted by imaginary enemies. So naturally fascists are deeply corrupt and willing to work for exactly everyone willing to pay.

[–] supersquirrel@lemmy.ca 5 points 2 days ago* (last edited 2 days ago) (1 children)

Oh so you still think the "only defensive weapons" line still works?

Pathetic.

You insult my intelligence by thinking this kind of shitty logic will work on me, you also insult this community by talking down to their intelligence with lazy arguments like this.

When a Genocide and War is occurring, if you give tools of war to the people perpetrating Genocide and War you are responsible for empowering their Genocide and War, whether the weapons are "defensive" or not is a laughable distraction from that basic reality.

Pertinently, in modern warfare the most crucial enablers for offensive action are air defenses and ballistic missile defenses, this is a basic consequence of combined arms warfare and it makes your framing absurd based on its first principles alone.

[–] MousePotatoDoesStuff@lemmy.world 1 points 1 day ago (1 children)

What can we do about this?

[–] gian@lemmy.grys.it 1 points 1 day ago (2 children)

Perhaps we could start addressing the issues that the AfD is using as campaign talking points and that the others choose to ignore.

[–] AnUnusualRelic@lemmy.world 9 points 1 day ago (1 children)

People in (former) East Germany believe that they are forgotten by all the traditional political parties. And that nobody attempts to take care of them. So most of them see it as a protest vote.

As an aside, about two thousand billion euros have been invested in the former Eastern Germany by the country and EU since the reunification.

[–] Mucki@feddit.org 1 points 1 day ago (1 children)

Source for the "two thousand billion"?

[–] AnUnusualRelic@lemmy.world 1 points 1 day ago (1 children)

Local news yesterday night.

[–] Mucki@feddit.org 2 points 1 day ago (2 children)

That's no source. Which outlet?

[–] GardenGeek@europe.pub 5 points 1 day ago

Source seems to be Joachim Ragnith (economist, vice leader of ifo Dresden)

https://www.msn.com/de-de/finanzen/wirtschaft/%C3%B6konom-joachim-ragnitz-seit-1991-sind-knapp-1-9-billionen-euro-von-west-nach-ost-geflossen/ar-AA2by3p1

Pinpointing a number is difficult for various reasons though.

[–] AnUnusualRelic@lemmy.world 2 points 1 day ago (1 children)

I think it was arte in "le dessous des cartes". Not completely sure though.

[–] Successful_Try543@feddit.org 3 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago)

I can confirm: The number is mentioned at about 2:00 in the German version.

https://www.arte.tv/de/videos/126925-113-A/mit-offenen-karten-im-fokus/

[–] Mrs_deWinter@feddit.org 7 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago) (2 children)

Meeting the AFD at their terms ("inhaltlich stellen") is exactly what the CDU tried, and look where that got them.

Answering facism with "well okay maybe we do have too many outsiders and queer people" doesn't solve facism, it simply creates more. And at the end of the day people still vote for the OG facists, so you lose across the board.

What we really need is to stop offering populists and facists the stage. We have to place the issues that are actually important instead of this fucking fear mongering. People don't vote AFD for their legitimate policies! People vote facists if they're uneducated, poor, and desperate. We need to offer education and realistic opportunities of economical advancement and happiness. Want to guess which party doesn't offer that at all and instead will make all three significantly worse for working people? THE FUCKING AFD.

[–] gian@lemmy.grys.it 1 points 21 hours ago (1 children)

Meeting the AFD at their terms (“inhaltlich stellen”) is exactly what the CDU tried, and look where that got them.

Answering facism with “well okay maybe we do have too many outsiders and queer people” doesn’t solve facism, it simply creates more. And at the end of the day people still vote for the OG facists, so you lose across the board.

Correct, it does not solve fascism. Look at what Merz said: we will continue our way. Do you really thing that after this results this is the best thing he could have said ? Did he want to gift AfD also the next elections ?

What we really need is to stop offering populists and facists the stage.

And the only way you can do this is solving the problems people have, or think to have, so that populists and fascists can no longer use these as bogeyman.

We have to place the issues that are actually important instead of this fucking fear mongering. People don’t vote AFD for their legitimate policies! People vote facists if they’re uneducated, poor, and desperate.

Insulting who do not voted for you is the best way to win back their votes... sure.

So, where are all the intelligent and educated people who do not vote CDU anymore ?
Look at the historical data. Against last time (2024) it is true that AfD gained (about 14%) but the CDU was basically halved. And looking further back there is a balance between AfD gains and CDU loses.
My bet is that a lot of people who voted CDU last time simply voted AfD (or something else anyway).

And if the statistics about who voted who are correct, you have a list of thing to do to win back the preferences and to take away AfD political weapons.

We need to offer education and realistic opportunities of economical advancement and happiness. Want to guess which party doesn’t offer that at all and instead will make all three significantly worse for working people? THE FUCKING AFD.

Maybe, but at least they talk about them. And guess what ? People vote for the party that at least talk about the problems they have.

[–] Mrs_deWinter@feddit.org 1 points 15 hours ago (1 children)

Insulting who do not voted for you is the best way to win back their votes… sure.

Nice try, but nothing what I wrote was an insult. Being uneducated, poor, or desperate is hardly one's own fault. We need to start acknowledging that so many of us are being systematically disadvantaged by capitalism, which - surprise! - steals our knowledge, money, and happiness.

And the only way you can do this is solving the problems people have, or think to have, so that populists and fascists can no longer use these as bogeyman.

We need to solve the problems they have, not the problems fascists want them to think they have. If you try to frame the AfD's policies as actual solutions to legitimate problems you're simply reproducing their propaganda. That's like if you lived in 1933 and asked your politicians to deport a few Jews just in case, because those poor NSDAP voters had a problem (or thought to have a problem) with them.

Populism needs to be called out, dump policies need to be called out, lies and propaganda need to be called out, that's the only way to handle them. Your misguided understanding won't solve anything. If you were head to a big party and decided today to "address the issues" of the AfD, which "the others choose to ignore" as you wrote, best case scenario you would become the AfD 2.0. What good would that do?

[–] gian@lemmy.grys.it 0 points 13 hours ago (1 children)

Nice try, but nothing what I wrote was an insult. Being uneducated, poor, or desperate is hardly one’s own fault. We need to start acknowledging that so many of us are being systematically disadvantaged by capitalism, which - surprise! - steals our knowledge, money, and happiness.

As I understand once translated in my nativa language it is implied. Calling someone uneducated or desperate is read as an insult in Italy.

We need to solve the problems they have, not the problems fascists want them to think they have. If you try to frame the AfD’s policies as actual solutions to legitimate problems you’re simply reproducing their propaganda.

Ok, so let we stick with real case.
Not so many days ago, a man raped a 13 old girl in a minimarket, and tried the same 40 minute earlier with another woman. He was arrested and a judge let him go just because he said he was sorry (and a couple of day after he said that he did nothing wrong).
It is obviously a problem if you cannot send your daughter to buy a snack for his brother without the risk of being assaulted.

Now, what do you think people would vote between someone who defend the man and someone who say that the man should be punished ? What could be an alternative solution to put him in jail or punished in some way ? Do you really think that saying that a party is fascist because they said "that man need to be punished or deported if illegally here" is the way to go ?

That’s like if you lived in 1933 and asked your politicians to deport a few Jews just in case, because those poor NSDAP voters had a problem (or thought to have a problem) with them.

No. That's like living today and asking my politicians to punish, and eventually deport who are here illegally, the people who are committing crimes. I don't care if they are jews, italians or whatever. You break the law you are punished. Simple as that.

Populism needs to be called out, dump policies need to be called out, lies and propaganda need to be called out, that’s the only way to handle them. Your misguided understanding won’t solve anything.

Yes, I agree. But if you only call it out you don't solve anything. And since populism in the end have its roots in real problems, you don't solve the real problem.

If you were head to a big party and decided today to “address the issues” of the AfD, which “the others choose to ignore” as you wrote, best case scenario you would become the AfD 2.0.

No, I don't think it necessary would end up like a AfD 2.0 unless you think that if someone apply the laws he is fascist.
It could, I agree, but it is not the obvious end.

What good would that do?

A better country for every honest person, for example.

[–] Mrs_deWinter@feddit.org 1 points 11 hours ago* (last edited 11 hours ago)

No. That’s like living today and asking my politicians to punish, and eventually deport who are here illegally, the people who are committing crimes. I don’t care if they are jews, italians or whatever. You break the law you are punished. Simple as that.

And what makes you think those are actual problems in Saxony-Anhalt? Did you know it's the German state with the least amount of immigrants and refugees? Look. And yet, a party who blames each and every problem on cultural and ethnic minorities seems to convince 44% of it's population (and you, apparently) that this is the one issue they should focus on.

You are parroting propaganda.

A better country for every honest person, for example.

I asked you what good a AfD 2.0 would do, and that's your answer? Way to show your true colours.

[–] LastYearsIrritant@sopuli.xyz 6 points 1 day ago (2 children)

The problem is one step higher, the solution being offered is the shitty take.

People hate capitalism, they struggle with real in person connections, hate their jobs, are underpaid, and struggle with basic cost of living expenses. AfD blames immigrants. The solution isn't to ALSO blame immigrants, the solution is to solve the underlying problems.

It's a very difficult list of societal problems that specific people are claiming can be solved with one neat final solution, when in reality it just causes more problems and centralized power.

[–] thanksforallthefish@literature.cafe 2 points 1 day ago (1 children)

difficult list of societal problems that specific people are claiming can be solved with one neat final solution

Lol. I saw what you did there

[–] LastYearsIrritant@sopuli.xyz 2 points 1 day ago

I'm not proud.

[–] Mrs_deWinter@feddit.org 4 points 1 day ago

The solution isn’t to ALSO blame immigrants, the solution is to solve the underlying problems.

Exactly my point.

[–] Snoopy@piefed.social -3 points 2 days ago* (last edited 2 days ago) (2 children)

Well, they played with fire, still believe liberal system can stand still. They try to handle this castle card. It will stomp us very hard.

Those brilliant economists, people suggested great solutions that :

  • will end up with the most massive immigration we ever seen, because most land we become inhospitables.
  • will crush our economic system because of power outage, unhealty working place that kill workers (thus maybe more strike ?), climate disaster (hurricane, drought, flood...)
  • shorter live span : death due to air polution, bacterial and resistant viruse, lesser farm crop...

That's a good opportunity to offer them one ticket to mars. And of course, they won't be impacted like us.

[–] birdwing@lemmy.blahaj.zone 2 points 2 days ago* (last edited 2 days ago) (1 children)

Billionnaires fuel liberalism and fascism. Only through free socialism and communism will the labourer find true liberty.

#Eat the Rich

[–] Snoopy@piefed.social 1 points 2 days ago

Yes, let's send them to mars. I would also remove State, we don't need those worldeater.

But it is not enough, I believe in collective with shared responsibility. Firstly, we need to take back media and reverse the way news create and diffuse information. I would like to see a swiss voting system in France.

[–] supersquirrel@lemmy.ca -2 points 2 days ago (1 children)

Well, they played with fire, still believe liberal system can stand still.

BAHAHAHAHAHA

ok

[–] Snoopy@piefed.social 1 points 2 days ago* (last edited 2 days ago) (1 children)

Dunno why you react like that. I don't find it funny at all because in the end, it will impact us, even more when you are part of minority and deaf.

Probably, lesser than other countries, but it will hurt us.

We already endured several hot summers, it worsen each years. And we saw the premise of water war. French far-right want to destroy environmental associations, social aids, environmental norms and workers's right and expel people from abroad.

We are no different from usa with Trump. We are already here.

Even if i talk to people, try to convaince them that we will be the next country under far-right. And even if they haven't won, they grow each year, they pour their ideas and their userbase grow each year. Each political party are glued to far-right ideas. They could influence others countries as usa did, for example Canada.

It start with the media. Maybe it won't influence you, but other people can fall. I find it scary. I fear that moment the most.

[–] supersquirrel@lemmy.ca 2 points 2 days ago (1 children)

Yes but neoliberalism was necessary to get to this point, fascism is worse than neoliberalism but that doesn't change the fact that neoliberalism inevitably leads to a collapse into fascism by refusing to deal with structural issues until it is too late.

[–] Snoopy@piefed.social 1 points 1 day ago

We both agree, the sad part is that history seems to repeat.