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What do you think of Ro's decision? (piefed.social)

submitted 1 day ago* (last edited 21 hours ago) by bowsertattoo@piefed.social to c/startrek@startrek.website

28 comments fedilink hide all child comments

Are the Maquis doing the right thing?

Thanks for the lively discussion all! My take is that the sci fi elements mean you can't cut and paste their experiences onto our morality exactly, but it makes the feeling of conflict relatable, at least emotionally.

top 28 comments

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[–] charonn0@startrek.website 9 points 23 hours ago (1 children)

In a fully-automated luxury communist utopia, the Maquis are selfish assholes. Clinging to a planet because of the inconvenience of having to relocate. A planet which was never theirs to give or take in the first place. They talk a big talk about being "farmers who made something of the land," and maybe that's true. But they have replicators; farming is a hobby, not a livelihood.

Human, Vulcan, Bolian, etc. Maquis could lead happy, safe lives if only they were willing to lead happy, safe lives. They are not oppressed; they are not fighting in a righteous cause.

Bajorans, such as Ro, have different motivations. Bajor is not a party to the Federation-Cardassian Treaty, and Bajoran colonies were not sacrificed. Ro's motivations are sympathy for the Maquis and hatred for Cardassians. Understandable and relatable motivations, but not heroic.

[–] Skullgrid@lemmy.world 2 points 19 hours ago

In a fully-automated luxury communist utopia, the Maquis are selfish assholes. Clinging to a planet because of the inconvenience of having to relocate. A planet which was never theirs to give or take in the first place.

fucking a-men!

[–] FriendOfDeSoto@startrek.website 4 points 23 hours ago (2 children)

Ro's decision is understandable if you consider her life experiences.

The Maquis are not created in universe to be good or bad. They are not black or white, they are gray all the way. Because that's how all freedom fighters/terrorists are in their time. They get their marks from history. Some upstart colonists in the 1770s tend to get a more favorable score from history. For the communists in Cuba it depends who you ask.

Reality is a clusterfuck and politics is the art of what's possible. No one designed the situation to place colonists on these planets, to have a war in the neighborhood, and then have to come up with a compromise to end the killing. It happened and now they have to deal with it. I'd like to see the SWOT analysis of each colonized planet, just to see if they considered risking setting off the stereotypical fascist race in the neighborhood by their presence. That is to say the colonists may not be entirely blameless either. But regardless, the federation made an agreement to end the killing in a big war. They drew a line on a map and that's never not caused other problems in history. In the middle east, in Korea, in Europe, etc. It's often the best solution to end or prevent the fighting but it's still a shit solution that doesn't solve all problems. Indeed, one might argue it may only be a temporary reprieve. So the Maquis are borne out of gray, they do things that are gray, often more on the darker spectrum, and then the authorities come in and also react in dark gray when they poison an entire planet's atmosphere. The writers even threw in some native American tribes having to relocate or accept Cardassian rule to perfect the clusterfuck.

The way some of the Maquis stories are told in late TNG and then DS9 is not the best Trek has to offer. But if you zoom out, the overall situation they've created is realistic and believable. The Maquis are ambiguous, the role of the federation is ambiguous. It's all just gray. And while I don't think it's super unrealistic that they just get wiped out by the Ketracel White addicts, I thought it's a lazy writers' end to a great scenario they had created.

[–] Skullgrid@lemmy.world 2 points 19 hours ago

great take, especially

The way some of the Maquis stories are told in late TNG and then DS9 is not the best Trek has to offer.

[–] ruuster13@lemmy.zip 2 points 23 hours ago (2 children)

The Traveler showing up to further Wesley's Hero's Journey feels a bit easier to swallow when framed as a "part of the clusterfuck" episode.

[–] dalekcaan@feddit.nl 0 points 3 hours ago (1 children)

I'm never going to be able to swallow Wesley Crusher getting turned into a demigod for being The Most Specialest Boy™ and helping Space Native Americans keep their Space Land.

The most insulting part is that I'm not even using Space Native American as an overly reductive dismissal of a fictional race, they were literally fucking Native Americans in fucking space. It's like one of the writers saw the TOS episode with the black and white people and said, "Nah, too subtle. We need to reenact the Trail of Tears...but in space!"

[–] ruuster13@lemmy.zip 1 points 3 hours ago

Critical Space Theory

[–] FriendOfDeSoto@startrek.website 1 points 22 hours ago

As far as I'm concerned, that and PIC S2 NEVER HAPPENED!

[–] Skullgrid@lemmy.world 4 points 1 day ago (3 children)

No.

The Maquis are trying to undermine a peace treaty full of compromises. Basically, any time you think the Maquis are doing the right thing, think of what would happen if the compromise the Cardassians would ask for is to have Bajor back, and turn Kira Nerys' favourite planet back into a slave run industrial wasteland.

In the vast emptiness of space, there are plenty of planets that aren't contested. Get the colonisers (which is what these fucking people are) to go there. You have fucking replicator technology, and transporters, you don't need to be hellbent on these random ass planets to the point where you start bombing planets inhabited by sentient beings.

Also, Ira Steven Behr is an edgelord on purpouse, and put up these kinds of divisions and polemics just to make Star Trek not a utopia. Any dilemmas are made just to push established visionary boundries, just to make a "no paradise is attainable" point.

[–] AngryCommieKender@lemmy.world 1 points 21 hours ago (1 children)

I actually think habitable planets in the Star Trek universe are pretty rare. That is the easiest explanation as to why they go so far out of their way to not destroy habitable planets, despite clearly having the technology needed to just blow up planets willy-nilly like the Empire can in SW.

[–] Skullgrid@lemmy.world 3 points 21 hours ago (1 children)

IDK, the universe is pretty vast, and they seem to be tripping over M class planets. Also, there are several other classes of planet available and they do some terraforming, it wouldn't be too far fetched to say they took a "not quite M-Class" planet and did a little terraforming and had that up for grabs.

[–] AngryCommieKender@lemmy.world 1 points 21 hours ago* (last edited 21 hours ago) (1 children)

Did any terraforming happen after Project Genesis and Kahn? I haven't watched since Voyager, but I don't remember them explicitly mentioning it in either TNG or DS9

[–] Skullgrid@lemmy.world 2 points 20 hours ago* (last edited 20 hours ago) (1 children)

They do plenty of terraforming adjacent tasks in TNG, mainly for planets that have recently joined the federation, or are undergoing some kind of collapse prevention. I think the issue with Project Genesis and similar is that they were "bombs" that would instantly overwrite the ecological system on a planet with a predetermined one, wiping out the existing ecological system in the process, to put plainly, killing everything.

The terraforming I'm talking about is stuff like earthquake mitigation, adjusting "atmospheric conditions" to stop greenhouse effects or similar, etc. And it's all signed off in triplicate from the federation etc, not just lobbing a terraforming bomb at a planet on a whim.

https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Terraforming

[–] AngryCommieKender@lemmy.world 2 points 19 hours ago

New head canon: Project Genesis is the actual origin of Exterminaus in WH40K

[–] agentTeiko@piefed.social 1 points 23 hours ago (1 children)

Ireland would like to have a word.

[–] Skullgrid@lemmy.world 1 points 22 hours ago

yeah, you wanna explain the good friday agreement to me? Or do you just want all the protestants off the siland?

[–] ValueSubtracted@startrek.website 1 points 1 day ago (1 children)

Get the colonisers (which is what these fucking people are) to go there.

You could say the exact same thing about the Cardassians.

I don't see any good way to fill in the blank where "forced relocation is fine when _____" is the sentence.

[–] Skullgrid@lemmy.world 2 points 1 day ago (1 children)

You could say the exact same thing about the Cardassians.

The Maquis are trying to undermine a peace treaty full of compromises.

Yes you could. Which is why they ended up with a compromise for both the Cardassians and the Federation, to create a fragile peace that can be maintained if both parts accept the compromises each on ceded.

I don’t see any good way to fill in the blank where “forced relocation is fine when _____” is the sentence.

“forced relocation is fine when you set up base there about 20 years ago, you will get more than handsomely rewarded with an equal or bigger piece of land on a different planet and not be inconvenienced, and it is to stop an interplanetary war.”

[–] ValueSubtracted@startrek.website 1 points 1 day ago (1 children)

you set up base there about 20 years ago

For the sake of argument, how many years is the cutoff that flips it from "fine" to "evil"?

you will get more than handsomely rewarded with an equal or bigger piece of land on a different planet and not be inconvenienced

Citation needed? I don't think that was ever stated, and "Journey's End" is actually pretty clear about a new home having not even been identified.

it is to stop an interplanetary war.

The Federation and the Cardassians were not at war when the treaty was signed...

[–] Skullgrid@lemmy.world 0 points 1 day ago (1 children)

The Federation and the Cardassians were not at war when the treaty was signed…

According to the fictional storyline of the Star Trek universe, the Maquis were formed in the 24th century after a peace treaty was enacted between the United Federation of Planets and the Cardassian Union, redesignating the demilitarized zone between the two powers, which resulted in the Federation ceding several of their colony worlds to the Cardassians. Although the colonists were offered free relocation to elsewhere in Federation territory, some insisted on remaining on the ceded worlds; effectively becoming subject to the Cardassian Union, which behaves aggressively towards them. Some of these colonists subsequently formed the Maquis to protect themselves from Cardassian aggression, due to a lack of official support from the Federation; who feared breaking the peace treaty with the Cardassians, which would lead to war.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maquis_(Star_Trek)#Storyline

Bruh we're on an internet board. You really want to split hairs about the fine details of fake politics?

For the sake of argument, how many years is the cutoff that flips it from “fine” to “evil”?

Multiple lifetimes having passed. As in, two sentient lifebeing lifespans, to the point where the original migration is completely removed from living memory. This isn't "all the colonists knew from the moment they were born" this is "We set up that well 10 years ago, and we barely got to use it". You worked as an agreement with an organisation, that has now had to adjust to harsh realities, and you also need to do so.

Citation needed? I don’t think that was ever stated, and “Journey’s End” is actually pretty clear about a new home having not even been identified.

Picard and Deanna Troi are on Dorvan V, conducting the initial meeting with the Tribal Council. Picard tells the Native American leaders that there is very little he can do to change the situation, as the decision was made at the very highest level of Starfleet. Anthwara, the leader of the tribe on Dorvan V, resists Picard's attempt to convince them to relocate. Troi offers the suggestion of other available planets to colonize with similar environmental conditions, as well as their help in getting settled immediately. Anthwara responds saying that the environmental conditions themselves are not the basis of their location, but, rather, that the mountains the rivers and the sky welcomed them.

https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Journey%27s_End_(episode)

My interpretation of the events is that eventually the butt of a Cardassian rifle is going to welcome it's new home in the heads of one of these native american settlers, and they are going to lament their choices.

[–] ValueSubtracted@startrek.website 2 points 23 hours ago (1 children)

You really want to split hairs about the fine details of fake politics?

It's sort of the point of the thread, so it seems a little odd to suddenly try to make it sound silly.

My interpretation of the events is that eventually the butt of a Cardassian rifle is going to welcome it’s new home in the heads of one of these native american settlers, and they are going to lament their choices.

This interpretation is completely correct, but it sidesteps the two fundamental questions.

Do the colonists have the right to refuse to leave (I think you've made your position in that clear), and if so, do they have the right to defend themselves when the Cardassians violate the terms that they agreed to and tried to drive them off those worlds?

[–] Skullgrid@lemmy.world 1 points 21 hours ago* (last edited 21 hours ago) (1 children)

do they have the right to defend themselves when the Cardassians violate the terms that they agreed to and tried to drive them off those worlds?

When you word it like that, they deserve to defend themselves if/when the Cardassians violate the terms of the treaty they reached with the former UFP/Current Cardassian colonists.

Which is the key term here. AFAI remember, they agreed to be subjects of Cardassia, which means the planet belongs to the Cardassians, which means they are probably going to mine the shit out of every natural resource on there.

However, if they have specific details they hammered out with these descendants of native americans, I don't thing was specified in the episode.

It’s sort of the point of the thread, so it seems a little odd to suddenly try to make it sound silly.

I understand and appriciate that, my point is more that they arrived at "a peace treaty" I don't know if it was to stop a war, prevent a war or whatever, just that "A peace treaty" was made, and the circumstances are irrelevant to the matter of the right/wrongness of Maquis behaviour.

it is to stop an interplanetary war.

The Federation and the Cardassians were not at war when the treaty was signed...

You really want to split hairs about the fine details of fake politics?

It's sort of the point of the thread, so it seems a little odd to suddenly try to make it sound silly.

Like, putting a peace treaty at risk presumably would cause a war, or "bad things". That's what I mean. The Maquis are putting peace at risk by throwing their tantrum, regardless of how or why the peace treaty was needed.

[–] ValueSubtracted@startrek.website 1 points 20 hours ago (1 children)

if they have specific details they hammered out with these descendants of native americans, I don’t thing was specified in the episode.

There was an agreement made with Gul Evek - as you said, for them to be under Cardassian jurisdiction, if not full citizens:

PICARD: Anthwara, I want to make absolutely sure that you understand the implications of this agreement. By giving up your status as Federation citizens, any future request you or your people make to Starfleet will go unanswered. You will be on your own and under Cardassian jurisdiction.

ANTHWARA: I understand, Captain. And we are prepared to take that risk. Will the Cardassian government honour your agreement here?

GUL EVEK: I believe I can convince them that this is an equitable solution. I cannot speak for every Cardassian you may encounter, but if you leave us alone I suspect that we will do the same. Will this be acceptable to the Starfleet Command?

PICARD: It will not be easy, but with Admiral Necheyev's support, I think they will go along with it in the end.

However, that's not the way things went down:

HUDSON: I knew him. Bill Samuels was a farmer. He cultivated his land for twenty years. He raised two kids on that land. He made something out of that land and the Federation told him he had to give it all up to the Cardassians. Well, he just was not willing to do that.

SISKO: And it was people like him who made both sides realise that some accommodation had to be made for the colonies so they could stay.

HUDSON: The Cardassians have no intention of allowing these people to stay. They will either force them out or they will kill them. It's already started. Not a day goes when there's not some random act of violence against our people. Every Federation colonist knows you do not go out alone at night. Can you imagine living in that kind of fear?

SISKO: If you're saying the Cardassian authorities are not enforcing the laws, we can-

HUDSON: Enforcing the laws? The Cardassian authorities were part of a mob that stoned two colonists on the streets of Ropal City three days ago.

SISKO: That's something the Federation can take up with the Cardassians at the highest level.

HUDSON: Well, that will help a lot. The word is the Cardassian High Command is arming their colonists to the teeth.

Those are the events that led to the Maquis as a resistance movement - before that, there were no Maquis, just colonists who stayed behind.

[–] Skullgrid@lemmy.world 2 points 19 hours ago (1 children)

OK... but it very much feels like a protracted escalation that is to lay at the feet at the Colonists refusing the fucking leave, and the Cardassians acting, predictably like assholes.

HUDSON: I knew him. Bill Samuels was a farmer. He cultivated his land for twenty years. He raised two kids on that land. He made something out of that land and the Federation told him he had to give it all up to the Cardassians. Well, he just was not willing to do that

SISKO: And it was people like him who made both sides realise that some accommodation had to be made for the colonies so they could stay.

I mean, this nails the fucking thing on the head. Bill wanted to take advantage of the hard work he did, which is fair. He was warned the Cardassians owned the planet now, and that if he wants to stay safe, he needs to leave, and that the Cardassians are assholes. He says no. Ok. The federations says "Look, we have this treaty, but we aren't going to do jack to enforce it. You're on your own". He says OK. The Cardassians act like assholes. Shock , horror. Now Bill is mad, that the people he was told was going to fuck him over , fucked him over.

Let's pan over to somewhere else now.

Imagine you are a Cardassian Colonist, and you are working on a terraforming mission. You've been on Unnamed Planetopia for 15 years and worked on a mine so that your family in Cardassia could afford a house or fucking whatever. Then, some human asshole bombs your planet with cobalt diselenide, and you gurgle to death as your lungs turn to liquid.

Your Cousin on Bill's planet hears the news about yet another human acting like shit on an planet owned by Cardassia, and how you , and your entire colony was wiped out by that fearsome maverick, Michael Eddington, and he has enough of that poison to kill every Cardassian in the DMZ.

Eddington has attacked a Cardassian colony with a biogenic weapon. The chemical used was cobalt diselenide, created from the selenium and rhodium nitrite, which is lethal to Cardassians but harmless to most humanoids. The Maquis have already announced an intention to reclaim the planet. Also, with the amount of biogenic weapons the Maquis have, they can poison every Cardassian colony world in the Demilitarized Zone.

https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/For_the_Uniform_(episode)

Do you really think that this shit is making things any better for anyone? Does anyone expect Gul Generic to act civilised towards Bill getting in his face when his cousin and the entire fucking colony choked to death in agony?

Obviously, the tales in Star Trek, are morality plays based on things in history. The problem is that the federation is meant to be fair, just and able to provide everything people need.

It boils down to a few ideas :

Personal risk management
Post war border settlements and their adjustments to the new borders.
The "inevitability of the federation"

Personal risk management

The colonists accepted the risk that the Cardassians would treat them unfairly, and the risk came out badly for them. Just like when people go skydiving or rock climbing and sign waivers to accept a personal risk, the colonists accepted the risk that the cardassians would treat them like shit. The federation can try to rescue them, and I'm sure the cardassians would let them flee, but they want to fight, and they fucking ask the federation for assistance. Bruh, fuck off. There are more controversial ways of looking at this, but , if you choose to take risks, don't act out cry "unfair" when the risks don't go your way. There are people like this IRL that gamble or make risky choices, and cry foul when it goes sour; it's part and parcel of that risk. I'm not saying those people shouldn't be offered assistance after, but insisting on validation that they didn't make a mistake and to continue whatever lifestyle they want is bullshit.

Post war border settlements and their adjustments to the new borders

In IRL there are places that end up in the "wrong country" due to a settlement post war/conflict/treaty. The well being of those places are almost always dependent on what happens between the two countries in the following years. Some examples can be seen on wikipedia :

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_divided_cities

Some places of note to think about :

One of the weirdes enclave/exclave situations were set up in the border between India and Bangladesh, which literally lead to people dying and services being completely busted and inaccessible to local people. Its exact opposite would be Baarle-(Hertog/Nassau), where due to the Schangen agreement and the peace and co-operation between Belgium and the Netherlands, life in the village is peaceful and largely indifferent to the notions of enclaves and exclaves.

Alsace(–Lorraine) was a disputed territory between france and germany, especially during WW1, and a thorn in the side for negociations for peace. At present, similarly to Baarle, due to the peace between france and germany and the EU, things seem to be going all right for them. Same goes for Tyrol and Austria/Italy. There are contentions, but no one is getting blown up over it.

The "inevitability of the federation"

While this is not something that's part of IRL, it is an interesting idea I saw in a video :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xbys9HJvSXA (this fucking things is half an hour long)

Bottom line : The federation is too damn efficient for other cultures to not eventually make peace and trade with it instead of being a pain in their ass. They will inevitably stop wars with you, and start being your allies, one way or the other. It happened to the Klingons, and it "is happening" to

spoiler

the Romulans and the Ferengi.

NB: I am not talking about post burn. Fuck you, I'm not going to cover an entire millenia of fake history.

Eventually, the federation will settle the disputes with cardassia, and establish more amicable relationships with them. Then the DMZ will be pacified, things will get bettter for the inhabitants of planets in and around the DMZ, both federation and cardassian.

But you gotta let go man. Diplomacy can't continue when you're polluting entire fucking planets and harming civilians on either side.

I'm tired. What was the question again?

[–] ValueSubtracted@startrek.website 1 points 19 hours ago (1 children)

Well yeah, my understanding of the Maquis' formation of an armed resistance must definitely shouldn't be taken as an endorsement of everything they did.

What was the question again?

All we wanted to know was whether a hot dog is a sandwich...

[–] Skullgrid@lemmy.world 1 points 19 hours ago

All we wanted to know was whether a hot dog is a sandwich…

I don't know anymore man, it's a sausage? 😭

[–] Kirk@startrek.website 1 points 1 day ago (1 children)

I always felt like they did a pretty poor job of making the audience feel any significant level of sympathy for the Maquis (assuming that was the goal).

[–] Tango@piefed.ca 2 points 20 hours ago* (last edited 20 hours ago)

I think the main goal of the Maquis was not to evoke sympathy for them, but to put the main characters in interesting moral/ethical quandaries. Both TNG and DS9 did "forced relocation" episodes where the narrative focus was on the fact that there were no "right" answers, only "less wrong" ones.

In that sense, it's like the Kobayashi Maru: the main characters are presented with a no-win scenario and the purpose of the episode is that watching how they deal with that tells us more about who these characters are and what they stand for. Kira's episode certainly helped define her character, especially when Sisko summed it up for her: she was used to fighting for the underdog, but she was on the other side now.