this post was submitted on 14 Dec 2023
61 points (100.0% liked)

Canada

7203 readers
203 users here now

What's going on Canada?

Communities

🍁 Meta

πŸ—ΊοΈ Provinces / Territories

πŸ™οΈ Cities / Local Communities

πŸ’ SportsHockey

Football (NFL)

  • List of All Teams: unknown

Football (CFL)

  • List of All Teams: unknown

Baseball

Basketball

Soccer

πŸ’» Universities

πŸ’΅ Finance / Shopping

πŸ—£οΈ Politics

🍁 Social and Culture

Rules

Reminder that the rules for lemmy.ca also apply here. See the sidebar on the homepage:

https://lemmy.ca

founded 3 years ago
MODERATORS
otter@lemmy.ca
61
Truck driver who caused deadly Broncos crash loses latest bid to stay in Canada (www.winnipegfreepress.com)
submitted 11 months ago by grte@lemmy.ca to c/canada@lemmy.ca
45 comments fedilink hide all child comments
 

Non-Paywall Article

all 46 comments
sorted by: hot top controversial new old
[–] jadero@lemmy.ca 47 points 11 months ago (4 children)

My biggest problem with this whole thing is the legal framing of his actions.

If the bus had instead been a car with a single, middle-aged occupant, I think everything would have gone quite a bit differently.

If that single occupant had not been killed, but made a full recovery, it definitely would have gone a lot differently.

If it had been merely a cop observing the infraction, he would have escaped with just a ticket. At worst, I suppose he might have got a temporary license suspension.

I have difficulty accepting that the identical behaviour should have such radically different punishments just because pure chance leads to radically different outcomes.

Note that I'm not saying that someone who kills someone else should be getting off scott free, regardless of the behaviour that led to the death. But maybe there is room to increase the penalties when dangerous behaviours have little or no consequence as well as room to move on how we handle behaviours that rarely have devastating consequences. Let's face it, the vast majority of those who even deliberately blow through rural stop signs will never even get a ticket, let alone kill someone.

Personally, I don't see this person as a threat to our society, so I see no reason to deport him.

[–] villasv@lemmy.ca 7 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago) (1 children)

I have difficulty accepting that the identical behaviour should have such radically different punishments just because pure chance leads to radically different outcomes.

That's how the law works, no? The consequence of the action, despite having a random chance factor in it, is one of the factors that decides the application of the law. If you do something dangerous and you're lucky you didn't kill anyone, you're judged with different standards than if you did something dangerous and did kill someone.

In law theory afaik, the damage caused irrespective of intent is a factor on the penalty it warrants.

As for this person being seen as a danger to society and deserving of deportation... I don't disagree. We need better roads, better traffic regulations, better driving safety standards. Tossing someone out of the country because they're in the unlucky bunch of the day isn't helping anything, really.

And I say unlucky bunch of the day because we have more than 300 crashes per day in Canada (with at least 1 person injured).

[–] jadero@lemmy.ca 3 points 11 months ago

Yes, that is how the law works. I think, that within limits, that is how it should work. Where I have difficulty is in figuring out those limits.

For another example, Canada has gone many decades explicitly prohibiting consecutive sentencing. There seems to be some movement in at least softening that prohibition. I can see why that might be a good idea in some cases, but I don't want Canada to just go all-in on consecutive sentencing.

[–] avidamoeba@lemmy.ca 6 points 11 months ago

And that's just one of the flaws of our current system.

[–] Showroom7561@lemmy.ca 4 points 11 months ago (1 children)

Personally, I don’t see this person as a threat to our society, so I see no reason to deport him.

It is important to note that not all crimes are punished based on the potential threat to society, however, it is worth acknowledging that the sentence of 5 years before freedom is disproportionate to the 16 lives taken due to dangerous driving.

The families want him deported, just so they can move on with their lives. That should be a good enough reason for the rest of us to accept.

Let’s face it, the vast majority of those who even deliberately blow through rural stop signs will never even get a ticket, let alone kill someone.

I don't know about you, but even when I have my dog in the car, I drive with even more attention and defensively than when I'm alone. I can't even fathom the thought of being intentionally reckless while being solely responsible for the lives of a bus full of people.

[–] corsicanguppy@lemmy.ca 27 points 11 months ago (1 children)

The families want him deported, just so they can move on with their lives.

Because it's better if he were sent back to india instead of being sent to Hay River? Chicoutimi ? Surrey?

What's the difference? He's an airplane ride away and he's potentially a tax-paying member of society.

Is it justice? It smells like vengeance.

[–] Showroom7561@lemmy.ca 0 points 11 months ago (1 children)

I can't speak for the families, so that's a question to ask them. All we can do is support what they need.

It may be better for the driver to leave the country anyway, as I'm sure his past won't escape him.

[–] GreyEyedGhost@lemmy.ca 3 points 11 months ago (1 children)

I agree, the families should get the support they need, but therapy isn't free here. I can agree if this man lives in a small community, it would be easier for everyone if he left. But that's leaving the town, not the country. Oh, there's no law to require that? Unfortunate, but that's no excuse to abuse the law instead.

[–] Showroom7561@lemmy.ca -2 points 11 months ago (1 children)

Unfortunate, but that’s no excuse to abuse the law instead.

Out of curiosity, are you against deporting THIS guy, or any criminal? I ask because Canada deports criminals on a regular basis, so I'm not sure what "abuse" of the law you're referring to.

Our criminal justice system has deportation at our disposal; the family of the victims asked for deportation so they could move on with their lives (their words, not mine); the defendant had the legal ability to bid for a stay, which he did several times, and denied the stay. If deported, he could also re-apply to come back.

It sounds like our justice system worked exactly as it was supposed to in this context, failing the fact that he only received five years for killing so many people.

Would the family have asked that he be deported if he was given a more appropriate sentence of 30+ years (2 years for careless driving causing bodily harm x the number of victims)? Probably not.

I'm not saying that deportation is the right answer here, as it's clear that this was a crime of negligence and not a premeditated one. But I will always be on the side of victims and their families, and this is what they want.

[–] GreyEyedGhost@lemmy.ca 4 points 11 months ago (1 children)

First and foremost, mob justice is rarely justice. Second, as the other poster noted, this has been a problematic intersection for over a decade. This guy was just the unlucky one to have a bunch of people die because of his bad judgement. Third, when is the last time someone was deported over a negligence conviction of any kind?

I get that the families of these victims never want to see him again, but it's a big country. Their desires can be met without deporting the guy.

I'm not against deporting criminals, but I believe they should present a danger to society. I'm pretty sure this guy is never going to do something like this again, if for no other reason than him not being allowed to drive professionally (and if he is still allowed to drive professionally, that's another, different failure of the system).

[–] Showroom7561@lemmy.ca 1 points 11 months ago

First and foremost, mob justice is rarely justice.

What mob justice are you referring to? This case went through the Canadian legal system.

Second, as the other poster noted, this has been a problematic intersection for over a decade. This guy was just the unlucky one to have a bunch of people die because of his bad judgement.

Bad judgment? He went through a stop with a semi, which is why he pleaded guilty to dangerous driving, which is not the same as bad judgment.

Unfortunately for all those involved, his actions directly led to the deaths of multiple people, ruining dozens of lives. These families will never get closure, so what they need is an important aspect of Justice. Again, you or I don't have to agree with it, but we do have to support them.

Third, when is the last time someone was deported over a negligence conviction of any kind?

You can be deported if you are sent to prison for at least six months.

So theft over $5000 could get someone deported.

Killing and hurting dozens seems to more than adequately satisfy this requirement.

I'm not willing to dive into the records to go over each case and circumstance, since I'm not here to "win" any internet debates, but hopefully that answered your question.

I get that the families of these victims never want to see him again, but it’s a big country. Their desires can be met without deporting the guy.

Again, I won't speak for the families.

If, after five years, they are still so broken that they feel deportation is still necessary, then who are we to challenge that? Maybe the thought of knowing that he's still here, benefiting from the fruits of this wonderful country, while their family will forever be shattered, is too much to overcome.

I’m not against deporting criminals, but I believe they should present a danger to society. I’m pretty sure this guy is never going to do something like this again, if for no other reason than him not being allowed to drive professionally (and if he is still allowed to drive professionally, that’s another, different failure of the system).

I do agree. Deportation could be worse than lifelong jail (in Canada) for some.

I guess this is why the importance of victim impact statements is a cornerstone of our justice system. The law tries to balance between proportional consequences and the feeling of justice for victims.

[–] rab@lemmy.ca 6 points 11 months ago

I still blame the trucking company who gave him the keys.

[–] Ulrich_the_Old@lemmy.ca 5 points 11 months ago

Scott Moe killed a person while driving drunk and has had zero penalties.

[–] xc2215x@lemmy.world 5 points 11 months ago (1 children)

Not too surprising. The accident was too much.

[–] Showroom7561@lemmy.ca 4 points 11 months ago

I'm still pretty shocked that the guy is free on parole just five years after killing 16 people!

I can't imagine how traumatic that must be for those families, who are still grieving from their losses.

[–] cheese_greater@lemmy.world 0 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago) (1 children)

How does everyone feel about Ali Ibrahim? Was it all worth it?

Edit: i guess folks dont wanna talk about it

[–] DerisionConsulting@lemmy.ca 9 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago) (1 children)
[–] cheese_greater@lemmy.world -2 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago)

Ali hit his own pretty little something and ran :(. Absolute joke he makes of us