this post was submitted on 25 Apr 2026
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[–] Buffalox@lemmy.world 134 points 3 weeks ago* (last edited 3 weeks ago) (5 children)

Chinese companies are heavily incentivized to use Chinese chips instead of American since Trump blocked trade with China.
China used to parallel import the chips they needed, and even repackage them with more onboard RAM, making more powerful Nvidia solutions available in China than in the rest of the world.
But Trumps behavior towards China made the Chinese government decide to limit the use of American technologies for AI.
There was a point where Nvidia exports to China was basically at a standstill, because China forbade the purchase of a new cut down Nvidia chip made for the Chinese market to circumvent American trade restrictions.

China is building their own complete stack now, replacing everything with Chinese technologies, right from the AI chips to the entire AI software framework.

So not only does Nvidia and other American companies lose hardware sales, the entire stack will be threatened with a Chinese alternative, that will likely compete with American options on the international market in the future. If Cuda loses its current dominance, it will be easier for competitors to take marketshare from Nvidia.

Hopefully this will be good for consumers worldwide.

[–] eestileib@lemmy.blahaj.zone 31 points 3 weeks ago (1 children)

Qwen is already the standard for actual pros as far as I can tell.

[–] ArchAengelus@lemmy.dbzer0.com 30 points 3 weeks ago* (last edited 3 weeks ago) (1 children)

It’s only the standard for people who self host their llms and don’t have $500k to throw at hardware for GLM-5.1 or similar models.

I have qwen3.6:27b on my local hardware and it’s way better than I expected. I’m excited for the rest of the 3.6 line as it comes out, if they can keep up that quality.

This story is also a nothing burger. Generally, yes, Nvidia will suffer once chinas stack catches up (soon). By then whatever bubble we are in will have normalized one way or the other.

In terms of actually deploying this model, it doesn’t matter what hardware you’re using. VLLM supports almost everything with SIMD-type hardware instructions.

More competition will make everyone happy except Nvidia shareholders.

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[–] avidamoeba@lemmy.ca 13 points 3 weeks ago (4 children)

Been using Qwen 3.x for a while now for local LLM with search capability. The 3.5 and 3.6 ones are great and run very fast.

[–] sp3ctr4l@lemmy.dbzer0.com 5 points 3 weeks ago* (last edited 3 weeks ago) (5 children)

I got Qwen 3.5 running on a Steam Deck.

It ain't exactly blazing fast, but it does actually work.

(Reasonably fast if you go down to the 2B param model, I can get the 9B param variant working, though this makes Steam Decky very hot and bothered.)

Yeah, you absolutely do not need Nvidia hardware to run an LLM, but we get blasted with their propoganda suggesting otherwise just all the time in the English speaking West.

Because if you don't need Nvidia, well, then, this whole AI bubble looks a lot more bubbly.

[–] avidamoeba@lemmy.ca 4 points 3 weeks ago (3 children)

Take good care of your hw! It's not like 2 years ago when you could buy stuff off the shelf for reasonable prices. :D

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[–] Nikelui@lemmy.world 3 points 3 weeks ago

Qwen 3.6 is already out? Damn, I swear I switched to 3.5 not even a month ago.

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[–] Diurnambule@jlai.lu 10 points 3 weeks ago (1 children)

Please do i can't be so wet. European are eager to ditch Americans. In the long run Chinese seem to a be a more reliable partner

[–] Buffalox@lemmy.world 10 points 3 weeks ago* (last edited 3 weeks ago) (2 children)

I would prefer it wasn't like this, PAX Americana seemed to work quite well for several decades, of course USA served their own interests, but they they also provided a somewhat stable world order with a decent degree of freedom.
Now they have abandoned the ideals of freedom and democracy and international law, to serve their own interests exclusively at immense cost to others, without regard for either law or decency. and of course that is not sustainable to be an ally of.
I think USA will soon find that without allies, their power isn't so great after all.

[–] msage@programming.dev 6 points 3 weeks ago

You are talking about freedom and peace, but only for the global north.

It wasn't like that for rest of the world.

[–] Diurnambule@jlai.lu 5 points 3 weeks ago* (last edited 3 weeks ago) (1 children)

They were infiltrated by Epstein classes assets and a t fucked the system. At this time look at the tax rate of these deep fucks.

[–] Squizzy@lemmy.world 4 points 3 weeks ago (1 children)

I think its chicken or the egg with the us government and dirty money scubags

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[–] mannycalavera@feddit.uk 6 points 3 weeks ago (4 children)

Hopefully this will be good for consumers worldwide.

Until America decides to tariff anyone using Chinese technology.

[–] FaceDeer@fedia.io 29 points 3 weeks ago (1 children)

It'll be good for consumers worldwide. America is not the whole world.

I, for example, am in Canada. We've established a bunch of very nice trade deals with China recently, we're going to end up with access to a bunch of Chinese products that Americans can't get due to their self-imposed trade war with China.

[–] BrinkBreaker@lemmy.dbzer0.com 6 points 3 weeks ago (1 children)

I think they mean that the US would put trade pressure on countries doing any tech trade with China, not specifically preventing it punishing American companies from using Chinese chips.

Unfortunately the United States is still a big economy regardless of their politics and Manny is right that the US would throw their weight behind anti China policies to the detriment of other nations.

How successful such a move would be is up to debate.

[–] FaceDeer@fedia.io 12 points 3 weeks ago (3 children)

The US is already trying to throw its economic weight around bullying Canada, and we've already settled in to an effective economic defensive posture. Those trade deals with China are actually part of it, previously we were supporting various American initiatives to tariff China but the Americans tore up a bunch of agreements with us so we responded in kind. It's unfortunate but they started it and we're prepared to hold our own.

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[–] otter@lemmy.ca 14 points 3 weeks ago (1 children)

America decides to tariff anyone using Chinese technology

America already decides to tariff countries regardless of what they're doing

[–] Tollana1234567@lemmy.today 3 points 3 weeks ago

specific on tech, remember huwei phones it was all the rage as alternative to google and iphones, and samsungs. and then the compares got scared and lobbied for thier bans.

[–] Buffalox@lemmy.world 9 points 3 weeks ago

USA is already losing the tariff war as it undermines the American economy, and hasn't helped their trade deficits much.
When EU finally decides to put tariffs on American services, because USA continue with their shenanigans, then USA will have a trade deficit for real.
Because the trade deficit on goods is vastly outweighed by the surplus on services.
Even if they have a deficit, it is basically free, because they can pay for it with dollars they print themselves, because the USD is the global reserve currency.
But Trump is ruining that too, since "liberation day" where Trump introduced his tariffs, the use of the USD as a global reserve currency has dropped, some claim by up to 30%

All USA is doing is undermine the power they used to have. Everybody threatened by USA are in talks with each other to increase cooperation.

EU, Canada, Australia, UK, Japan, are making deals to cooperate around USA including on military.
The Gulf countries are now negotiating with China on economy, which will potentially be the end of the petro dollar. And they are looking to Europe especially Ukraine for defense equipment to replace American equipment.
South American countries have been working with China for years, and USA subsidizing Argentina will not change that.

USA is making themselves irrelevant, the Iran war has shown their military is a paper tiger, that cannot protect their allies, and they are pulling key defense equipment out of Japan and South Korea to aid in the Iran war. Making all allies unsure of the value of cooperating with USA. Japan participating in the EU SAFE program is an extremely clear indicator of that.

So whatever USA decides, will have very little bearing on the rest of the world. Because for USA, the train has already left the station, the ship has sailed. The world has lost patience with USA, and are now only idling in their relations with USA, while they all seek to strengthen other relations, for both financial stability and military safety.

[–] unexposedhazard@discuss.tchncs.de 3 points 3 weeks ago* (last edited 3 weeks ago)

US tariffs hold no power anymore these days.

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[–] brucethemoose@lemmy.world 40 points 3 weeks ago* (last edited 3 weeks ago)

What’s left unsaid is the software architecture is extremely interesting, and efficient.


Ironically, the Nvidia embargo was the best thing to ever happen to the Chinese labs (which Nvidia tried to tell the US govt). It forced them to get thrifty, unlike US labs which (allegedly) fill some GPU farms with busywork for the appearance of high utilization.

[–] jaykrown@lemmy.world 21 points 3 weeks ago (1 children)

It almost feels like the Trump administration is trying to help Chinese companies at this point.

[–] M137@lemmy.today 2 points 3 weeks ago (1 children)

So many things they're doing feel like this. A few things I could see being a conscious and planned deal but most things completely go against any interest they have so it's clear that it's just an unbelievable level of incompetence, stupidity and ignorance.

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[–] ag10n@lemmy.world 19 points 3 weeks ago (3 children)

You can run it on CPU alone. Not surprising they’re building their own AI ecosystem

[–] eager_eagle@lemmy.world 14 points 3 weeks ago

It's still matrix multiplication. Running it on a general purpose CPU is inefficient.

[–] theunknownmuncher@lemmy.world 10 points 3 weeks ago

I mean, sure. You could also run it by drawing marks in sand. It doesn't make any sense to do either, though.

[–] brucethemoose@lemmy.world 9 points 3 weeks ago* (last edited 3 weeks ago) (21 children)

Not at scale. Even on the new architecture, one really needs some kind of accelerator to make it economical for servers.

Bitnet-like models might change the calculus, but no major trainer had tried that yet.

[–] panda_abyss@lemmy.ca 6 points 3 weeks ago* (last edited 3 weeks ago) (1 children)

Even with a bitnet, it’s almost definitely better to train on a high precision float then refine down to bits.

I would expect bitnet to require more layers for equivalent quality too.

[–] brucethemoose@lemmy.world 2 points 3 weeks ago

I just meant for mass inference serving.

Yeah, I haven’t seen much in the way of bitnet training savings yet, like regular old QAT. It does appear that Deepseek is finetuning their MoEs in a 4-bit format now, though.

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[–] humanspiral@lemmy.ca 9 points 3 weeks ago (1 children)

Huawei outperforms NVIDIA at the "cluster" level. Which are mostly turnkey systems for datacenter units. And promises truck container level cluster for next generation that is 30x the zetaflops as NVIDIA rubin cluster. China currently operates at 50% electric production capacity, and energy extremely abundant and low price, which make the per level card performance deficit irrelevant.

[–] KingRandomGuy@lemmy.world 6 points 3 weeks ago (2 children)

To be fair, the raw FLOPs count doesn't tell the whole story. On a lot of workloads (including token generation during LLM inference), you're bound by the memory bandwidth rather than throughput/FLOPs. On H100/H200, keeping the tensor cores fully occupied is surprisingly difficult, and that's with 3+ TB/s of memory bandwidth. And I believe those cards have much higher throughput (at least at FP8, Ascend wins at FP4 since H100/200 don't support it) compared to Ascend.

The Ascend 950PR units have far lower memory bandwidth, reportedly at 1.4 TB/s. Compare that to Blackwell, which has something like 8TB/s of bandwidth. I believe they're manufacturing their own kind of HBM, so that's still really impressive considering this is a fairly recent push into manufacturing accelerators. But I'm a bit skeptical it actually outperforms NVIDIA at scale.

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[–] Tollana1234567@lemmy.today 6 points 3 weeks ago

is that why JESEN was telling people to not leave him.

[–] Sxan@piefed.zip 5 points 3 weeks ago

Sad trombone.

[–] billwashere@lemmy.world 3 points 3 weeks ago (2 children)

Sorry if this is a dumb question, but is this just for training or does DeepSeek v4 now require these chips to run?

[–] qaz@lemmy.world 2 points 3 weeks ago (1 children)

I don't think they only run on these chips. There are some companies in the US that provide Deepseek V4 presumably running on standard Nvidia chips.

[–] billwashere@lemmy.world 3 points 3 weeks ago

Well I’ve got three 512gb Mac Studios in an EXO cluster I’m gonna see how it works.

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