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submitted 10 months ago by spaceghoti@lemmy.one to c/politics@lemmy.world

The plaintiffs’ arguments in Moore v. United States have little basis in law — unless you think that a list of long-ago-discarded laissez-faire decisions from the early 20th century remain good law. And a decision favoring these plaintiffs could blow a huge hole in the federal budget. While no Warren-style wealth tax is on the books, the Moore plaintiffs do challenge an existing tax that is expected to raise $340 billion over the course of a decade.

But Republicans also hold six seats on the nation’s highest Court, so there is some risk that a majority of the justices will accept the plaintiffs’ dubious legal arguments. And if they do so, they could do considerable damage to the government’s ability to fund itself.

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[-] Fedizen@lemmy.world 101 points 10 months ago

there's literally a constitutional amendment saying congress can issue taxes however they want. The supreme court is so full of its own shit they think they can rewrite every law they don't like.

[-] spaceghoti@lemmy.one 61 points 10 months ago

That's why they've been stacking the courts with conservative activists for so long, so they could get a majority that would go along with these paper-thin justifications for completely changing our society from the top down.

[-] Zombiepirate@lemmy.world 37 points 10 months ago

Well said.

The stated goal of "originalism" is to read the Constitution without interpretation.

Which would be bad enough, since it was written by a bunch of slavers without any input from women whatsoever.

But in reality it is impossible to read something (especially law) without interpretation; they simply start with the desired conclusion and look for any historical justification no matter how implausible.

[-] lolcatnip@reddthat.com 7 points 10 months ago* (last edited 10 months ago)

But in reality it is impossible to read something (especially law) without interpretation

Some people might see that as a challenge, so I'd state it even more bluntly: reading is interpretation. Reading without interpretation is not just impossible; it's an oxymoron.

[-] SheDiceToday@eslemmy.es 2 points 10 months ago

I would hope every single high school graduate could remember the simple pictograph of how communication works:

  • Person A has an idea -
  • Person A encodes the idea and transmits it -
  • Person B receives the transmission and decodes it -
  • Person B has the idea-
  • Reverse the process for feedback and confirmation of idea -

That encoding bit is pretty important...

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[-] peopleproblems@lemmy.world 49 points 10 months ago

They not even hiding it now. They control the court, so they control the law.

This is one issue where I get angry with the democrats. They could have stacked the courts a long ass time ago and prevented shit like this.

[-] spaceghoti@lemmy.one 34 points 10 months ago

This is one issue where I get angry with the democrats. They could have stacked the courts a long ass time ago and prevented shit like this.

When? They pushed through candidates when they could, but they had to change the Senate rules during the Obama administration just to end Republican filibusters on non-controversial nominees. The news was all over both the backlog of empty seats and the need for Democrats to change the rules just to get what nominees they could past Republicans.

And of course, that ended once Republicans took the Senate.

[-] jjjalljs@ttrpg.network 6 points 10 months ago

Bad idea but fun to fantasize about: use some of those patriot act powers I assume exist to drag Republican Congress people off to detention centers because they're enemy combatants. Suddenly Democratic super majority, fewer traitors in government, and an unbearably bad precedent set for the next time Republicans have power.

On the other hand, trump is probably going to try that kind of thing anyway.

[-] spaceghoti@lemmy.one 7 points 10 months ago* (last edited 10 months ago)

On the other hand, trump is probably going to try that kind of thing anyway.

Correct. According to Project 2025, they'll use an old provision in the Constitution to justify using the military to round up anyone who they deem a dissenter. I think there's a later law that prohibits the deployment of troops on American soil, but they're confident they'll have the courts on their side.

Found it.

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[-] Sanctus@lemmy.world 47 points 10 months ago

Do any of these fucken galaxy brains stop for a second to think what reality would be like the minute the government can't fund itself? Because, I do, and I'm targeting their houses first.

[-] Semi-Hemi-Demigod@kbin.social 33 points 10 months ago

"My goal is to cut government in half in twenty-five years, to get it down to the size where we can drown it in the bathtub." - Grover Norquist, Republican lobbyist

[-] Sanctus@lemmy.world 17 points 10 months ago

That sounds like some shit a dude with the name Grover would say. Is he also the monster at the end of this book?

[-] TrenchcoatFullofBats@belfry.rip 11 points 10 months ago

If the book is titled "Imagine What America Would Look Like if a Single Shitbag Convinced Republicans to Vote Against Every Tax Increase for Thirty Years", then yes, yes he is.

[-] Sanctus@lemmy.world 7 points 10 months ago

We are long overdue to cut out these middlemen in our representation. Not saying I know how, but it seems like even a small amount of power corrupts absolutely.

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[-] spaceghoti@lemmy.one 20 points 10 months ago

Yes. That's why they're doing it. They want to destroy the government so they can convince us to replace it with the feudal society they have in mind. They think they have enough control over sufficient resources that they'll be safe from any violence you might offer thanks to their private armies.

[-] Sanctus@lemmy.world 18 points 10 months ago

Strange, considering they have no skills and their money will become useless. How do they keep their guards from becoming warlords when the only thing between them and that title is an unworked body?

[-] spaceghoti@lemmy.one 8 points 10 months ago

Control over food, housing, entertainment, and other non-monetary valuables. Then they can start printing their own script to pay their mercenary forces.

[-] Sanctus@lemmy.world 8 points 10 months ago* (last edited 10 months ago)

You do have a point, I guess it really depends on the damage done from the fallout. A government crashing, and a nation dissolving is sure to cause a ruckus. If modern commodities are gone and we're banished back to primitives, the billionaires will have a rough time holding modern survivors. What are you lording over? My xbox is dead and I can set my tent up 49 yards to the west. Food supplies and clean drinking water would probably become the highest factors of control. I just don't see any of these "elite" piss babies actually being hard enough to survive in a world where you have to shit on the street and bury it. Hell, if they got what they wanted and our government did dissolve, I promise other nations will be swooping in to grab land and this conversation would have to take a new form.

[-] spaceghoti@lemmy.one 5 points 10 months ago

They're living in gated communities with tall walls and private police forces. As long as they promise their mercenary armies a cut of the spoils, they're not worried about continuing to control resources. They don't need to be physically hard, they're sociopathic enough to justify any cruelty to anyone they want in order to get their way. They're all sure they'll become royalty in the new order, if not the king/queen of their domain.

They have a plan, and they've gathered the means to accomplish their goals. What remains to be seen is how well their defenses will stand up in the ensuing chaos.

[-] Sanctus@lemmy.world 6 points 10 months ago

That is probably my point. The upheaval would be of biblical proportions. They are not ready to weather the storm. No one is. You saw what happened to supplies when Covid lockdowns were announced here. Imagine if the end of society was announced.

[-] spaceghoti@lemmy.one 3 points 10 months ago

They think they're ready. That's why they're pulling the trigger on this, and damn the consequences.

[-] Sanctus@lemmy.world 4 points 10 months ago

Gamma World it is then. I hope the villages of our descendants prosper.

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[-] Zombiepirate@lemmy.world 5 points 10 months ago

The Masque of the Red Death by Edgar Allen Poe was a feel-good story about this very phenomenon.

[-] Sanctus@lemmy.world 5 points 10 months ago

I actually wrote a poem for a writing prompt on bad site that was really just this. Instead of the Red Death, Governor Goodwill was suprisingly confronted by the survivors of the society he helped overthrow.

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[-] Buddahriffic@lemmy.world 3 points 10 months ago

Killbots and nuclear dead man's switches. Ruling from secret locations. Playing subordinates off each other. Offering them another faction to fight but tying their arm behind their back so they can't ever win that fight. Putting someone no one wants to follow next in line of succession. Living in a fortress where someone in a security room can lock the whole place down to prevent any coup from establishing their power. Setting fake honeypot assassinations as traps so that no one is willing to risk not reporting real ones because anyone who hears about one and doesn't report it gets executed. Threatening families and other loved ones if anyone steps out of line. Only trusting people that they have significant dirt on that will be released on the leader's death so that people in positions to take him down know they'll go down with him, so instead protect him from any who decide they are willing to go down.

Though the position will be tenuous, even with all of that.

IT people will be in the security people's position for the killbots and dead man's switches. Enemies can work together to take down a common enemy. Someone who suggests not tying their arms behind their back vs enemy faction could seize power. A coup could take out any in the line of succession they don't like. Buddy in the security room would gain the power of IT/security people, or they could send in other assassins. The fake honeypot assassinations could serve as cover for a real one (if they report it, good job you passed the test! If they don't and instead succeed in assassinating, good job, you got him!). Relying too much on threats to loved ones can leave you vulnerable to psychopaths that don't care about anyone else, or those who don't have anyone (not to mention group punishments tend to create more enemies). And relying on compromat might be risky in the age of fake news and deep fake videos.

[-] BigMacHole@lemm.ee 20 points 10 months ago

I'm glad there's no Justices on the Supreme Court taking lavish vacations, homes, RVs, bribes, jobs and planes from wealthy people who are arguing that wealthy people should pay no tax while receiving only bailouts!

[-] SCB@lemmy.world 20 points 10 months ago* (last edited 10 months ago)

So I dug in on this and the batshit thing here is they have a strong enough case to absolutely win with the current court. "Strong" here meaning "believable enough for this court to bullshit."

The Congress shall have power to lay and collect taxes on incomes, from whatever source derived, without apportionment among the several States, and without regard to any census or enumeration.

That's the 16th amendment, with the relevant part bolded. The argument is that wealth is not income, and thus this falls back on Article 1 section 9 which states

No Capitation, or other direct, Tax shall be laid, unless in Proportion to the Census or enumeration herein before directed to be taken.

Effectively they're claiming that wealth taxes are direct taxes (this is another shaky part, legally, and the part referenced in Moore).

Pollock v. Farmers' Loan & Trust Co. Found that a tax on income which was derived from property (rent, dividends, interest, etc.) was effectively a tax on the property, and so was a direct tax.

This was the case that set up for the passing of the 16th amendment, hence the shaky ground.

Wealth is property, holdings, capital, and money - thus by a... Let's call is "selective" view of cases like Pollock, the SCOTUS has reasonable plausibility in saying that this tax is direct, non-enumerated, and not income, and thus not protected.

It's a ridiculous decision that they could plausibly make, but they've shown they don't care if it's ridiculous, only plausible.

Edit: and of course, this was all planned.

The Trump tax bill largely gave up on taxing US companies’ foreign assets in the future — corporate money kept overseas is now generally immune from taxation, even if it is brought into the United States.

Also

When Congress passed the Tax Cuts and Jobs Act in 2017, it used a process that imposed a $1 trillion cap on how much the bill could add to the budget deficit over the next decade. So there’s a decent argument that, if Congress had known that the bill would increase the deficit by an additional $340 billion, it would have chosen not to enact any tax law at all.

Lmao at "cutting taxes raises revenue" being a thing Republicans run on

[-] Asafum@feddit.nl 8 points 10 months ago

"Pollock v. Farmers’ Loan & Trust Co. Found that a tax on income which was derived from property (rent, dividends, interest, etc.) was effectively a tax on the property, and so was a direct tax."

Ayyyy there it is, another argument for more benefits for the owners! Us schmucks should pay all the bills taken from our income and they get to laugh all the way to the bank sitting on their expensive properties they generate wealth from simply by existing. Fair and Balanced System™©®

I know it's old, but what a gross read. My income generated by my actual fucking labor should be taken, but your leech money is safe because you own a thing and do literally 0 work.

[-] OhStopYellingAtMe@lemmy.world 13 points 10 months ago

Hmm. Maybe we shouldn’t ask wealthy people who take money from even wealthier “donors” to make decisions about how much we tax wealthy people.

[-] Goferking0@ttrpg.network 5 points 10 months ago

how dare you be anti free speech - - court who is enjoying that money

[-] msbeta1421@lemmy.world 8 points 10 months ago

Didn’t Teddy Roosevelt implement wealth taxes via the Estate Tax and Capital Gains Tax?

These aren’t exactly new ideas. We’ve just slowly dismantled them over the past decades.

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[-] bigFab@lemmy.world 7 points 10 months ago

This tax would aliviate the tax evasion problem Trump has been always talking of. Why do this article then fear republicans could be against the proposal?

Before you crucify me: I know Trump is amongst the tax evaders, but at least he talks openly about the issue.

[-] autotldr@lemmings.world 4 points 10 months ago

This is the best summary I could come up with:


The specific details of this very complicated change to the US tax code are not especially important — although, for reasons discussed below, they could matter a great deal if the Moore plaintiffs prevail.

These three cases arguably mark the dawn of the Lochner era, which is named for a 1905 Supreme Court decision that imposed strict limits on both the federal government and the states’ power to enact laws seeking to improve workplace conditions for workers.

The plaintiffs in Moore are represented by Andrew Grossman, an adjunct scholar at the right-libertarian Cato Institute, and David Rivkin, a Republican lawyer known for defending torture during the George W. Bush administration, and for filing one of the first lawsuits claiming that Obamacare is unconstitutional.

Macomber, a 5-4 decision mostly joined by pro-Lochner justices, said that “enrichment through increase in value of capital investment is not income in any proper meaning of the term.” That conclusion closely tracks the reasoning of Pollock, which was supposed to have been overruled by the 16th Amendment.

The Moore plaintiffs’ approach will be familiar to anyone who has studied the Lochner era, the age when the Court routinely struck down laws, not because they violated the Constitution, but because five justices deemed them “unwise, improvident, or out of harmony with a particular school of thought.”

When Congress passed the Tax Cuts and Jobs Act in 2017, it used a process that imposed a $1 trillion cap on how much the bill could add to the budget deficit over the next decade.


The original article contains 3,086 words, the summary contains 255 words. Saved 92%. I'm a bot and I'm open source!

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this post was submitted on 27 Nov 2023
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