DS9 is a Bajoran station, not a Federation one. The Bajoran economy is not post-scarcity and still runs on money. Either Starfleet officers get a stipend to purchase things when posted on such assignments, or Quark simply bills Starfleet. Either way, Starfleet/the UFP likely has a reserve of latinum and other resources for trade with other nations.
this post was submitted on 27 Nov 2023
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Ok so next question. If the computer can magically create anything. And they are on almost all space stations (including cardassian/federation ones) what's the point of a bar?
Gambling makes sense. Paying for food/drink when you have a replicator doesn't.
No one said the replicator can perfectly create the most delightful and exquisite flavors and aromas associated with the real thing. Also the bar is like a real bar in a way, you're not paying for just the food/drink but also the atmosphere.
Also also it's a Bajoran station, so maybe Quark has to pay an energy bill even for using the drinks replicator.
Also also also Quark makes the point that he had programmed the drinks replicator to be even better than a regular one, so you're also paying for that.
I think Sisko threatened to charge Quark for rent and utilities in one episode as a way to get Quark to do something Sisko wanted.
Quark may be billing Starfleet for his services, but I'm sure he understands how to be in the good graces of his cop landlord.
I'm pretty sure that's the episode where Quark becomes an arms dealer.
Which also has Avery Brooks's creepiest line in the series; the way he says "Works for me!" gives me chills. Serial killer vibes.
Having seen Avery Brooks give panels at cons, I can confidently say that all the times when Sisko got space madness or was holosuite transformed into a Bond villain or was otherwise acting like a madman... all of those performances are the real Avery Brooks, and the stolid, restrained, level-headed Sisko is the character that Avery Brooks uses his formidable acting skills to pretend to be.
It's the strike episode. "Bar Association" Sisko threatens him with charging rent if the strike doesn't end soon.
I think Sisko's threat is to start collecting rent Quark technically always owed but that Sisko had chosen to overlook because of the benefits the bar brings to the promenade, especially in the immediate aftermath of the Cardassian withdrawal.
I believe you are correct.
It was because they'd given him the supplies he needed to restart the bar after the FCA revoked his business license. So they were threatening to take back the equipment and start charging him rent again if he continued to do arms deals on the station.
Also also also Quark makes the point that he had programmed the drinks replicator to be even better than a regular one, so you're also paying for that.
Great point.
And to be clear, by "programmed" we mean "installed weird sketchy dark web firmware, some of which he happened to write and sell himself" and by "even better" we mean "breaks lot of Federation food safety rules in fun ways".
This makes much more sense. On my first run through of ds9 and this has been bothering me
Also, you can get groceries and make your own dinner. Why would you ever go to a restaurant?
Going to a bar is most likely about the atmosphere, the people there, just as much as it is about the alcohol
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maybe Quark has to pay an energy bill even for using the drinks replicator.
I think this is the main part. Things cost money on DS9 because the energy used to run the replicators is a finite resource, given that they are in such a remote location.
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You can buy alcohol cheap from a store in real life, along with all the ingredients to make drinks, yet people still go to bars where cocktails cost more than a meal. They're not going just because of superior bartending skills, they're going as part of the experience of drinking with other people. Because on DS9, your other option is basically to drink in your quarters, which is no fun.
There are more options for food on DS9, but people still go to Quark's for the atmosphere. It's lively and fun, which is probably hard to come by otherwise on a remote space station. I doubt people are coming to Quark's in droves for the food though, it's more just something you get if you're already there.
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There has been several episodes that talk about how poor the quality the food and drink are. Plus Starfleet replicators cannot make alcohol.
Plus Starfleet replicators cannot make alcohol.
I don't think that's accurate, we saw an episode of lower decks where the group were discussing that Starfleet replicators use a similar chemical that has much shorter lived symptoms.
The exact quotes were tense asking how they were all so drunk when x thing existed and Mariner replying she had started asking real alcohol after the 2 drink.
Replicators make synthehol and alcohol, you choose which variant you want or program in your standard options. Snobs like Scotty and Jean-Luc's brother say they can taste the difference which is why Guinan keeps "it is green" behind the bar.
Aldebaran Whisky?
Yes.
They can in TNG at least. There is an episode about people being cryogenically frozen in the past, because of uncurable illnesses. They unfroze them, and one dude ordered alcohol. He even said it was the best glass he has ever had.
Whiskey, I believe. I bet the replicator gave him Synthohol with whiskey flavoring.
Iirc it's that they find Scotty from OG through plot magic and he complains about synthehol not being scotch.
Data says someone else (guinan?) Has a bottle or two stowed somewhere of something similar....
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It's a plot point in the early seasons that the replicators on the station are not as good as the ones you might find on a federation starship.
Pretty sure Quark uses replicators for the food. Just has actual drinks in stock.
I suspect that the primary money makers are the drinks, gambling and holosuite time.
@aredditimmigrant @VindictiveJudge later in lower decks it's revealed that quark has "done some work" to his replicators that make them produce results you can't get in your quarters/mess hall
The computer can’t create everything, that’s why gold is near worthless and latinum is eternal.
Paying for food or drink would be for recipes not programmed into your own replicator, or when you’re not at home with your own. Star fleet seems paternal about healthy stuff like synthehol.
I think I remember them mentioning that the replicators can't make very complex items, like a layered alcoholic drink. That and honestly a lot of people would probably still go just for the social aspect.
Latinum is chosen as the default currency, exactly because it is not replicable. In ST:Outpost there's an episode where they find an alien tech that is able to replicate latinum, but only for a couple days before it dissolves. That is than used by ferengi pirates for obvious malicious reasons. ST:outpost is a fan production though, so not canon, but I do believe this is how it is. It is briefly mentioned in the apendices on latinum's memory alpha page
The Bajoran economy is not post-scarcity
So I understand the above items (latinum being the most important and fungible) being non-replicatable. But at the point where Starfleet is permanently on your station and has easy access to both replicators and infinite energy, why aren't the Bajorans also post-scarcity? You'd think that tech, while powerful, is a far more important thing to trade for and Starfleet has an incentive to uplift societies it isn't at war with to prevent scarcity wars and instability.
Bajor isn't part of the Federation, so they don't have immediate access to all Federation tech. Also, even when they join, I'm not convinced that the Federation just hands new members everything. The Prime Directive is all about not interfering in a society's natural growth, and although achieving warp travel is the major barrier to initiating First Contact, I wouldn't be surprised if there were additional steps along the way once a planet has joined the Federation.
Second contact is a very important job.
You kinda have to ignore replicators for most of this to make sense. They should've just let replicators be either microwave ovens or 3D printers instead of being apparently able to replicate anything.
Star Trek was pretty inconsistent with money. Riker often gambled for money, and they certainly treated specific items as "valuable" (historical items, weapons, and especially liquor.)
I think some of the writers just didn't know how to picture a post-money world. But by DS9 they mostly treated things like latinum an inter-species trading valuable (especially to/from the Ferengi) or just something that's needed in the outskirts of the Federation.
and they certainly treated specific items as “valuable” (historical items, weapons, and especially liquor.)
Historical items definitely have non-monetary value. They can't truly be replaced since, no matter how accurate the replica, only the one chair will be the Enterprise-A's captain's chair, for example. Replicators have software restrictions on what you can make with them, so you can't just replicate weapons under normal circumstances, which creates scarcity and gives them value. Starfleet replicators also seem to be restricted from creating alcohol, which means most of the characters we see can only get it on shore leave, which also creates scarcity and therefor value. Alcohol is probably significantly less scarce when sourced through civilian replicators. The ones on DS9 are programmed with Starfleet's restrictions, though.
That's my point though. They don't really address how McCoy got the glasses he gave to Kirk in Star Trek II. Did he buy them? Did he just ask someone for them? Did he barter for them for services?
Same thing with alcohol, some people pull out alcohol they obtained through some back alley, black market deal. But what was traded for this black market alcohol?
My SO and I say that all the chips they're exchanging during the Enterprise-D poker games are exchangeable for sexual favors.
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Ferengi have never stopped caring about profit, it's a fundamental part of their culture.
Gold pressed latinum is an interesting currency FWIW. IIRC latinum is so valuable that gold is just the container for it, adding little value.
iirc gold is considered worthless.
Gold can be replicated, so it is worthless. I don't know why gold is used to suspend Latium, but it is.
Well gold is famously nonreactive and doesn't tarnish. Plus it looks good.
Looks nice. Non-reactive. Quark talks about gold-pressed latinum having a distinctive clink, so the gold would be a part of that.
That sounds right to me as well now that you mention it.
This guy wrote a pretty in-depth essay on the subject a decade ago: https://rickwebb.medium.com/the-economics-of-star-trek-29bab88d50
Overall seems to give a good picture how Treconomics, but I think he is wrong a in a few ways. The first being private property. There is definitely personal property, but no private property as "business" like the Sisko Family Restaurant and Picard's vineyard aren't charging anything from what we can tell. They operate like their customers are family, and you're visiting them to eat/drink with/etc and then go home.
The second is his labeling of The Federation as a technically capitalist society. I don't think that's the case, as corporations don't seem to exist aside from the ones that are owned and operated outside of Federation space. There are family "business", but they don't have stocks or a stock market. And because the "businesses" that do exist don't charge or make profit, I don't think it can be considered capitalist.
And they are indeed credited to and debited from each citizen’s “account.” However, the average citizen doesn’t even notice it, though the government does, and again, it is not measured in currency units — definitely not Federation Credits.
I think this idea of each Federation citizen having a welfare account is probably wrong. I think it's more likely that it's just assumed that you won't abuse the replicators/transporters, with a set limit of how much of something a user can use it.
So you can maybe replicate only a handful of basketballs a day, a couple hundred hotdogs, etc. But there is an inbuilt limit to the machine and electricity provided to your home. But it's not an account.
Sure, I agree that there is absolutely somebody/some governing body controlling and tracking energy use. But again, no personal account.
As for the rest of what he said there, I am pretty much in full agreement.
How I've always seen it:
Starfleet (and perhaps a large portion of the UFP) do not use money or valuable materials to pay their workers and other organisations within Starfleet and likely those other UFP worlds under the same philosophy.
However, they do need to deal with many civilisations that do not subscribe to the same ideals. As such, they would likely maintain funds by trading to and from these civilisations.
It would be possible as others suggest to either bill Starfleet directly, or for officers to be able to requisition various precious items/currency as/when needed.
Maybe they give certain species of crew members money to keep them loyal to Starfleet and work.
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